How'd it go today?
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Dave Shepard
Square peg, round world.
Angle grinder with 80 grit flap wheel to shape. 6000 Japanese water stone for honing, and a strop loaded with green compound to finish.
BlackSmith
Uncivil
Damn.
Spray for dough, climb for show.
There’s money in PHC, so it’s attractive to the larger companies acquiring smaller tree services.
Few do PHC well and honest in my experience.
Mick!
TreeHouser
Hey @cory its all a bit sudden but yeah, bollocks to it, sell it all and get on with life.
67 is enough, best of luck with it.
I’m 62 end of this year, looking to finish in 3 years.
The kid that works for me is off to the UK on a climbing course for the whole of February, he’s already doing a bit of it is good on the machines.
For reasons I wont go into on here he’s unlikely to disappear round the world, though of course anything is possible, no one is under obligation.
Two or three years he’ll be right up to speed, then we’ll see.
67 is enough, best of luck with it.
I’m 62 end of this year, looking to finish in 3 years.
The kid that works for me is off to the UK on a climbing course for the whole of February, he’s already doing a bit of it is good on the machines.
For reasons I wont go into on here he’s unlikely to disappear round the world, though of course anything is possible, no one is under obligation.
Two or three years he’ll be right up to speed, then we’ll see.
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Because spraying is a predictable recurring source of annual revenue for a tree service.
True but I coulda woulda shoulda done that 20 y ago. The reason I didn't is simply that I'm a fairly horrible delegator so I had my hands full with 1 crew doing GTW, and I don't like "chemicals"
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I've been in the green industry since '77 (if you count logging) and fair to say I know alot about the ins and outs of tree service life. And yet, how guys run successful, huge outfits with multiple cranes and heavy equipment and 20-50 people, given the inherent dangers of tree work (everything from catastrophic issues (a death or serious injury OTJ) to the mundane (you broke my driveway/the curb/my irrigation, you rutted my lawn)) not to mention the powerful sales force needed to keep that iron and those people busy, is quite frankly a mystery to me.
And speaking of the heavy iron, lotta construction co's run heavy iron every day but it stays on site for likely days or weeks at a time whereas the heavy metal tree service is moving that iron daily if not multiple times a day. The risk exposure seems enormous to my pea brain.
And while I'm noting my deficiencies, I also find it somewhat amazing that small outfits can get it done without the owner on site most of the time. At my outfit, we tended to work fairly fast, safely and efficiently with me as an open minded leader, and thereby made a profit. I wonder how other outfits get it done where the foreman is simply given an address and work order in the morning and then it is hands off all day. To employ people capable of that level of productivity I would think the accompanying compensation would be prohibitive to the bottom line. Thus, my wonder.
And speaking of the heavy iron, lotta construction co's run heavy iron every day but it stays on site for likely days or weeks at a time whereas the heavy metal tree service is moving that iron daily if not multiple times a day. The risk exposure seems enormous to my pea brain.
And while I'm noting my deficiencies, I also find it somewhat amazing that small outfits can get it done without the owner on site most of the time. At my outfit, we tended to work fairly fast, safely and efficiently with me as an open minded leader, and thereby made a profit. I wonder how other outfits get it done where the foreman is simply given an address and work order in the morning and then it is hands off all day. To employ people capable of that level of productivity I would think the accompanying compensation would be prohibitive to the bottom line. Thus, my wonder.
I understand what you’re saying, Cory. I have been my main hindrance through the years. I like “small” business. Back when I was roofing, I was once booked a year in advance. I never had more than three helping, and the vast majority of the time it was just one. I could have hired two crews and kept them busy, but chose to stay small. Same is true with my tree business. I have one guy helping me. Truck, loader, dump trailer. I like to work 3-4 days a week. Last week we worked four days, totaling 22 hours. I can’t fathom being able to buy million-dollar equipment. But then I don’t like debt either!
I started writing a bunch of stuff, but wasn't sure where I was going with it, and nobody wants to(or will) read a novel, so I'll drop a couple observations...
I've been informed some people like running businesses. Doesn't matter what the business is, they like the process of running businesses. That's a bizarre concept to me. Running a business is the worst part of, umm... running a business. What I want is to go out, and get something done I hopefully enjoy, or at least tolerate. With big companies, I think you need one or more people that enjoy running businesses. The treework is incidental.
If you value money above all else, you might want to guide yourself into a big business position. You have to do a bunch of lame shit, hey, you got the money coming in, right?
The other option, is try to enjoy your life, and don't worry about the money. I took less money in exchange for less bullshit in my life. I still have bullshit, but it's the kind I prefer if I have to have it at all.
That's the difference between big and small companies.
I've been informed some people like running businesses. Doesn't matter what the business is, they like the process of running businesses. That's a bizarre concept to me. Running a business is the worst part of, umm... running a business. What I want is to go out, and get something done I hopefully enjoy, or at least tolerate. With big companies, I think you need one or more people that enjoy running businesses. The treework is incidental.
If you value money above all else, you might want to guide yourself into a big business position. You have to do a bunch of lame shit, hey, you got the money coming in, right?
The other option, is try to enjoy your life, and don't worry about the money. I took less money in exchange for less bullshit in my life. I still have bullshit, but it's the kind I prefer if I have to have it at all.
That's the difference between big and small companies.
davidwyby
Desert Beaver
I’m with Cory. Very hard to find people capable of helping manage that aren’t running their own biz. I’d also prefer small.
yet we all know there are scads of mid size to large tree companies doing it.
You have wonder how. In surveying, I started in a pretty big company that got even bigger after I left, and the company I'm with now(LoL me and the boss) used to be a good bit bigger. I've seen some lame SOBs come through the system. I guess the money works out somehow, but it's a suboptimal condition. Ideally, you have people that don't need to be managed, but there aren't many of those. It's predominately mediocrity, with a bunch of soon to fireds coming and going, and a few that excel.
Nutball
TreeHouser
I don't understand it either. I have to see exactly what needs to be done, but guys I've worked with speak as vaguely as possible while describing the job, and just go for it with apparent success. And these are people I wouldn't trust to work without the owner around. I doubt myself enough to want a worthy second opinion around. It causes me a lot of stress.
Double edged sword. One crew will typically always be the most profitable, but it won’t generate enough money to offset the overhead of running a tree company, real estate, plus the money required to offer several career salaries, health insurance, the iron required, etc. With more work there is more exposure, insurance costs, and repairs.
I don’t consider my operation to be a big business, we are usually running 2-3 crews and 8-10 people. We cover everything from tree care to logging.
The more work you do, the less margins you make on each side. Part of that comes with the payroll cost to have a leader on that side of the operation. Employment is generally giving somebody a much better opportunity than you ever had. Having several crews out can certainly help offset some of the expensive repairs and issues, cover losses from other crews, but of course it can also go to hell in a hand basket, too.
I don’t consider my operation to be a big business, we are usually running 2-3 crews and 8-10 people. We cover everything from tree care to logging.
The more work you do, the less margins you make on each side. Part of that comes with the payroll cost to have a leader on that side of the operation. Employment is generally giving somebody a much better opportunity than you ever had. Having several crews out can certainly help offset some of the expensive repairs and issues, cover losses from other crews, but of course it can also go to hell in a hand basket, too.
thinking I might downsize myself some, 2 guys, 2 trucks, chipper, ex, dump trailer, 2 sets of climbing gear, 12 saws, GRCS, all the rigging I've ever needed (albeit nothing mid size, its all light duty or 3/4" stuff, but when I send big, I send BIG, that 3/4 gets a lot of use)
as profitable as this setup can be, I sure did make a lot more pre-machines, back when my expense was diesel for 1 truck and insurance things were a lot better
the excavator is really nice to have, super handy and capable, but I do see myself possibly selling it and buying a ditchwitch or something for a lower payment, my boxer was a turd and left a sour taste towards mini skids, but now that I've ran one that wasn't a POS I found out they can be really capable machines
Life has gotten easier without the bucket truck, sure I've had to rent lifts or cranes now to do a few jobs, but for the small percentage of jobs we used the bucket, having the smaller truck has been a massive, massive win
might have to drop that $1500 excavator payment down to a ~$600 mini skid payment and drop my prices some, not what I want to do, but if I don't get a call about that job application this week then I believe its what I will be doing in the coming weeks
edit to add
I can throw a mini in the bed of the dump truck and run solo when i need, mini + chipper + chip truck + saws and anything else I need, one stop shop
also, cheaper than running 2 trucks, 1 less guy on some jobs, 8 less tires rolling, 8 less sets of brakes to replace, half the fuel cost, and way less than half the headache, also less wear and tear on the pickup and dump trailer since it wouldn't be at max capacity for every trip
not only would I halve my payment and do almost the same amount of work (arguably more, I can run a mini skid like nobody's business), I would be reducing overall operating costs by a large percentage (exact number TBD, est 15-20%)
just food for thought
as profitable as this setup can be, I sure did make a lot more pre-machines, back when my expense was diesel for 1 truck and insurance things were a lot better
the excavator is really nice to have, super handy and capable, but I do see myself possibly selling it and buying a ditchwitch or something for a lower payment, my boxer was a turd and left a sour taste towards mini skids, but now that I've ran one that wasn't a POS I found out they can be really capable machines
Life has gotten easier without the bucket truck, sure I've had to rent lifts or cranes now to do a few jobs, but for the small percentage of jobs we used the bucket, having the smaller truck has been a massive, massive win
might have to drop that $1500 excavator payment down to a ~$600 mini skid payment and drop my prices some, not what I want to do, but if I don't get a call about that job application this week then I believe its what I will be doing in the coming weeks
edit to add
I can throw a mini in the bed of the dump truck and run solo when i need, mini + chipper + chip truck + saws and anything else I need, one stop shop
also, cheaper than running 2 trucks, 1 less guy on some jobs, 8 less tires rolling, 8 less sets of brakes to replace, half the fuel cost, and way less than half the headache, also less wear and tear on the pickup and dump trailer since it wouldn't be at max capacity for every trip
not only would I halve my payment and do almost the same amount of work (arguably more, I can run a mini skid like nobody's business), I would be reducing overall operating costs by a large percentage (exact number TBD, est 15-20%)
just food for thought
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treebilly
Student of the Jedi. OH-7106A
Congratulations @cory ! I’m hoping to make it to that point one day. I’m trying to retire in about 13&1/2 years. I’ll be 60 then. Not looking likely but I’m hoping amd trying. Living a bit lower now to live better later kinda deal.
Still want more creature comforts though. I just had a gas line run into my garage Thursday amd hooked the heater up Saturday. Just in time for the coldest cold spell we’ve had in a while. I bought the heater but the rest was a barter deal. Just so happened that the plumber didn’t cut enough firewood for this winter and I seem to have an extra 25 cord of seasoned wood. I swapped four cord for the work and materials. He also did a bunch of the other plumbing projects I’ve been putting off. We’re both happy.
I’m off for a couple days for the cold. Not what I want but I’m not complaining either.
Still want more creature comforts though. I just had a gas line run into my garage Thursday amd hooked the heater up Saturday. Just in time for the coldest cold spell we’ve had in a while. I bought the heater but the rest was a barter deal. Just so happened that the plumber didn’t cut enough firewood for this winter and I seem to have an extra 25 cord of seasoned wood. I swapped four cord for the work and materials. He also did a bunch of the other plumbing projects I’ve been putting off. We’re both happy.
I’m off for a couple days for the cold. Not what I want but I’m not complaining either.
I'm probably off all week cause of cold. Dirtwork's stalled on the trail job, and everything else is slow. Boss whines in the cold also. I'm fine with it, but I'm really burning through firewood. With me here all day keeping the fire going, it's going faster than years past. The pine I was saving for end season stuff may become primary wood.
Kaveman
Treehouser
See that Long Stud on the mini? That's Rob. He is a maestro on a mini. He's basically been running one since minis have been a thing. Rob don't climb. Rob is top tier ground support, unquestionably.
Good management is the art of putting the right people in the right places. Climbers, climb. Operators, run equipment, anything else is a waste of company time.
@WoodCutr, I won't argue about your downsizing numbers, that all tracks. What I will say, is that you need to evaluate your people. Don't let everyone go. Climbers need ground support, if only to call the paramedics when the worst happens. Running iron is fun, but is it the best use of your skills?
Let's say you and I are working together. Crane job? I've done a total of one, so if it's super critical, that's on you, bud. Big conifers and 8hrs in picks? That's my jam right there, been doing it since before you were born, maybe let me take that one, eh?
Also try to remember that the folk you let go, just lost a job, and it ain't easy. When you're the boss, it's not just your livelihood, but those of your employees as well. Chew on it for a bit, youngster, don't make any rash decisions.
its only me and one other guy, no plans to let anyone go, might let some equipment go, got all the equipment and no work for it anymore
Quarterly thinking is one of the things that makes everything shitty. In big business, it's to benefit shareholders and the C suite to the detriment of everything else. In small business, it can bite you in the ass. Nothing is forever. Shit gets slow, shit speeds up, rinse, repeat. Consider what it would cost to replace the equipment when things speed up. What you already have is most likely to be the best deal cause you know what you have. Buying something used can get you stuck with someone else's problem.
If you're desperate for money, you gotta do what you gotta do, but I wouldn't take the decision lightly. The chunk of money that comes in will be gone sooner than you'd like. Machines can work for a long time.
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