Tree Removal -- My 1st Removal for Pay -- $500

[Limbrat]

 

[theTreeSpyder]

cutting off the high rigging point the rope (line "A") runs to?

YES;
have seen several (z)Heroes remove all of left wing, center mast, then try to collect and leave rest/right wing for someone else like it is easy, they did biggest part!!
Thanx for not being that guy!
i'd assume most on this forum have seen same.
(z)Heroes have even tried to shove me aside when not wearing spurs and setting lines >> funny when they put spurs on backwards/spikes out and lost when can't climb!
>>not funny to see 60' of lifeline slack on a 40' climb... Darwin's theory will be hunting them to clear from gene pool;this game is for keeps!
.
Backwards pulls i see in rig: Half Hitch and Bowline:

#C second/final ring/grab does pull at leveraged angle just the same; but EXTREMELY buffered
>>more precise to say is not leveraged per load pull; as is very minimal in comparison
.
Half Hitch as pull angle modifier applied to Timber Hitch to make Killick pull examples:
(plus importance of similar topic Top Nip as stop; as best Nip place is same top Nip/ Equal & Opposite direction from loading pull of Standing Part)

.
Hinge-wise would look at any load where it wants to go as force/power axis; use that power to go to path you want to go as target axis.
>>facing direction on target direction gives path of least resistance to desired path
>>narrow axis of hinge: extremes/leveraged differences apart usher the shape of load/limb/tree to target path; (while)
>>long axis of hinge : extremes/leveraged differences apart usher the Center of Gravity forcepoint to target path
You want to purpose fully do both for most positive mechanix
.
When force axis is not same as target axis:
>>rear smallest area between hinge and power axis pulls Center of Gravity hardest to target path/maximize with tapered hinge; (just as on close)
>>front smallest area between hinge and power axis pushes Center of Gravity hardest to target path/maximize with Dutch step(only on fall side in backlean).
Also>>When force axis is not same as target axis:
>>not folding willingly into pure power axis/ dissipating same force over longer distance
>>must also use some of finite tree force to do so
Gives >> softer fold in felling and bucking,even top bind(fold up to 1:30 not 12noon).
Applied to your scenario, would setup hinge strategy; relax support line some like relieving small puff of steam from kettle/keeping most
>>invite load to find it's way home; perhaps line over farthest end forcing slightly stronger hinge just a second..
.
Saying 'axis' rather than 'direction' (1 way on said axis) allows model to encompass backlean scenarios
Should always and all ways watch this axis anyways/ looking both ways on this high loaded street;
>>because that Equal & Opposite direction is where rope recoil and barber chairs etc. kickback to!
In climbing and folding horizontal: same hinge used to fold down or crane lift up on same axis/either direction.

 

[rfwoody]

Hahahaha Sean.

Basically you rigged it incorrectly. The way you rigged it the tip fell, and the knots were oriented in such a way that at best they slipped and shock loaded, or worse slipped off completely. If you had moved what you tied all the way out towards the tip, you would be ok. The half hitch or marl is used to take force from the knot and provide a more secure knot due to increased friction, not to reposition the rigging point.

When you are taking a tree down, you need to have a reason and goal when you start rigging. Then you determine what rigging methods will help you achieve that goal. When your rigging point is behind you, as it was with that cut, the piece will swing back to be beneath it. So as rigged, you set it up to wipe you off the limb. I assume you were attempting to not crush something directly beneath the limb, so rigging was a good idea, either butt or tip tying it and leaving the piece that big probably would drop too far and crush what you were trying to protect. So you attempted to tie it in the middle, but that lets it swing and drop wildly. What you needed to do is add a spider leg, and tie both the tip and the butt, and then to control which way it swings, a tag line on the tip to pull it where you want it to go. Your face notch needed to be in the direction of the swing, and then you put yourself on the side with the back cut to put you in the safe zone.

Another quicker, easier, and safer option would be to just take it in a couple of cuts, either adding a block or natural crotch to act as a redirect for the rigging line, eliminating the swing completely. You need room directly underneath of you to do that, but you obviously had that there.

You really need to learn this stuff, because when you are in the tree with the next one, you can hurt yourself pretty badly if you can't control the piece or the rigging line. If you haven't already, do yourself a huge favor and buy the newly released digital copy of the fundamentals of tree work. It is very affordable, and will teach you all of this and more. Also check out climbing arborist and treemuggs websites, along with the isa channel on YouTube. They all have very good beginner videos to help you learn these concepts.

Dude, I want you to succeed, but more importantly, not be hurt in your newfound venture. You are over 60 years old, so not to be ageist, but maybe starting climbing wouldn't be the best idea. I could be wrong, but I think you would be better off just working from a lift. The guy who got me into trees can't climb at all, he does all of his work from a lift. He makes wayyyyyyyyyy more money than me, but he has the equipment. In the next one, rent a lift for a few hundred, and then figure it into the bid. $500 for that tree, hauling everything away, is wayyyyyyyyyy too low.

Thanks for taking the time to give me the good pointers, Kyle.

Yeah, now I think I know the type of knot I used: a "monkey knot" ... trying to make a running bowline, but I think I probably forgot how and just made a "monkey knot"

Since I rigged alone from the ground, and intentionally did not tip tie it, but (sort of) butt tied it, and had a controlled hinge which I released with the rope from the ground from a safe distance, after I had tripped it from a safe distance.... other than the poor knot configuration and possibly having a steeper angle "A" (per TreeSpyder), I guess I don't see how it was all that bad. -- (that should provoke some disgust or wrath

But I will say this...... the week I completed the job, I spent:
6 hours Tuesday intense working
6 hours Wednesday intense working
2 hours Thursday half intense working
... and I was totally wiped out pretty much through the rest of the week, until Monday.

haha, it did make me stop and reconsider a little

 

[rfwoody]

It's all relative Robert. Markets are different all over the country. Work in the city is generally more costly than that in the country. For someone in another part of the country to tell you what to charge for a tree in North Mississippi wouldn't be realistic. Your best bet would be to talk to local arborists to get a general feel for your area. And then there's the human factor in all that too. We do a lot of freebies and low bids for widows and vets. Whatever you and the customer find fair and agreeable is great. Of course you need to make a profit. Along with that, doing quality work, having a good reputation and being able to sleep well means a lot.

Thanks Ray!

 

[rfwoody]

About how much firewood did you haul off? About what diameter?

hahaha... well no firewood, per se..... I wouldn't sell Silver Maple (low on BTU chart).... but I might burn it in my fireplace, however currently I brought it back home and put most of the logs in a pile to be burned.

but the stump must have flared out at about 28"(?) or so because my 25" bar didn't go all the way through at the bottom.

(I should have measured it... I think I did when I bid the job, but my notes aren't handy right now).

 

[rfwoody]

You need flat ground for the stick trick to work..( just my 2 cents)

Good point sawman. This did happen to be pretty level ground in this case, though.

 

[rfwoody]

a clinometer app helps

Downloading one now for android. (it says "Contains ads * in-app purchases") .... I may have to delete it or pay for one that doesn't try to take my money.

This is what Taylor Hamel on the Treestuff Drt climbing video was using to measure rope angles I watched recently.

 

[rfwoody]

...............
E>this is where i'd want the Center of Gravity for the log, outside both hitch points to log, pulling hitch points close. See center of gravity as force point that powers rig
...............
Always, and all ways; look at the Center of Gravity(CoG) of a non bending load; to be like a point that gravity is cabled to and pulling exclusively from downward.
We want to take control of the shape, and CoG forcepoint both, can settle for CoG only and shape will follow easier than CoG following shape!(edit:guess that needs more explanation/later)
Visually measure scenario from this CoG point to the most loaded pivot point, then to all pushes pulls from that pivot point.
Trace force path like an electrical diagram of force flow; only with geometric consequence /distance angles matter unlike in electrical wiring.
................
Please review work, disposals, proposed technical surgical prowess proposed vs. price; jest sayin..
....

TreeSpyder,

What exactly is Center of Gravity here?

.... it obviously isn't the mere piece of wood taken by itself, because in that case, point "E" would be way to the right of the CoG, right?

If you were to put the branch/log on a fulcrum, the CoG appears to be just below where points A, B, and C come together.

Therefore you must mean something different by CoG that involves other forces, moments, etc. (?) ..... please advise?


..... also... would you (or anyone) please expound on: "Please review work, disposals, proposed technical surgical prowess proposed vs. price" ?

Thanks!

 

[rfwoody]

Hmmm, don't you dare be ageist now boy, you hear!!
IMO when we see new tree workers here on the forum, generally the older ones are more cautious and willing to take advice...who remembers Jose..

Having just gotten a copy of 'Fundamentals', I have to say that my background and experience already in tree work is really helping when reading the book. I like lots of pictures or to be shown things, so reading through it, at least I can already have a mental picture of what is being discussed and described.
Coming at it from your end woody, you will probably find that as you take on more work, parts of the book you have read will all of a sudden make you go Ah HA!!
A key for you right now will be to only take on jobs that you can honestly cope with, those with relatively low risk. The combination of successfully completing each job, reflecting on how it all went based on the plan you came up with at the start, and reading the 'Fundamentals' should see you progress steadily.

haha, Bermy, I like the way you think! .... yeah, that really resonates with a more comfortable approach I think I'm looking at as I try to cope with reduced strength and capacity that is the direction we are all going on this earth as time goes by but trying to make the best of it work-wise!

.... and to repeat what I replied to Kyle a little earlier:

The week I completed this job, I spent:

6 hours Tuesday intense working
6 hours Wednesday intense working
2 hours Thursday half intense working to complete job

... the rest of Thursday, and then Friday and Saturday I was totally wiped out!
I pretty much just totally "took it easy" ... relaxing and basking in the glow of and congratulating myself on my "victory".

 

[rfwoody]

TreeSpyder, Kyle,

I think I'm getting it now about the direction the knots are pulled ... with the running bowline and the half-hitch (and/or marline hitch(?))

(in all fairness to my instructor, Peter Jenkins, he was very clear about these things but I just forgot).

For me it is going to take layer upon layer of learning, doing, failing, reflecting, adjusting, learning, correcting, etc., etc. repeat to make these things stick.

But thanks for giving me this to engage my mind to and refocus my attention to.... now just to get some of these other aforementioned rigging forces concepts down pat.


But TreeSpyder, even though my knots were bad, etc.... I thought this is what I actually did for this bit of rigging(?)

"Applied to your scenario, would setup hinge strategy; relax support line some like relieving small puff of steam from kettle/keeping most
>>invite load to find it's way home; perhaps line over farthest end forcing slightly stronger hinge just a second.."

Thanks.

 

[rfwoody]

.... also, I think I need to go ahead and bite the bullet and get a copy of ABoK (hopefully not more than $50 used now)

.... also, I never got Don Blair's "Arborist's Equipment" ... maybe I'll finally get that too....

....and then put in the hard work of going back and studying and comparing and correcting the actual/experimental/practical (real work) with the theoretical/design/pure (from the books (and DVD's))..... (and feedback from Treehouse, etc.), repeat, repeat, repeat, etc.

Thanks All!

 

[theTreeSpyder]

Awe geeez, don't need to be so jr; jr.
.
ABoK was written in 40's WW2 era; great book of real grit; knots are quoted by number world wide, i see each as not a knot but a lesson.
The massive book in hand, talking about massive loads at sea; seems appropriate; but content wise the pages themselves, and look amazingly like this LINK
.

TreeSpyder, Kyle,

... half-hitch (and/or marline hitch(?))

..., even though my knots were bad, etc.... I thought this is what I actually did for this bit of rigging(?)

"Applied to your scenario, would setup hinge strategy; relax support line some like relieving small puff of steam from kettle/keeping most
>>invite load to find it's way home; perhaps line over farthest end forcing slightly stronger hinge just a second.."

Thanks.

Either Half-Hitch or Marl will do.
>>Slip Half Hitch off end when done and loop falls out of rope
>>Slip Marl off end when done and have over hand knot in rope
reverse either to install either
>>Marl harder to set, but then maintains the purchase of effort more
.
i figured/hoped that is what ya done; that would be the dance moves to focus on
would make face very inviting for log to fall into; not really gonna force anything so much as just allow it
.
But remember doing big things don't make ye superman; imagine self more like little man in center of 1000 elephant herd with small stick gracefully urging herd home
>> and trusting you are doing it right and that they are not having a bad day!
.
Center of Gravity is where that whole roped log would theoretically balance perfectly horizontally on a spike.
>>it is the sum total of all the short and long leverages and angles of the whole load mass
>>visualize gravity pulling at that specific point with a cable; the distance /angle from that point to the hinge pivot is the leverage of the load/movement
>>1 model is to command the Center of Gravity and the shape of the log or tree etc. follows
>>if a crane lifts a horizontal load upwards on hinge,and the pull is farther from the hinge than CoG, crane has leverage over CoG,
>>if not, probably still work if close,but load inverts on tear-off>>CoG rules
>>if log is falling, it is falling from CoG, and log shape follows..
Rest of log architecture is just handle points to talk to the CoG thru
>>BUT, the CoG does not itself have to at a physical point on architecture!
>> center of metal donut, is center of metal donut!
>>but can change position by leveraging against CoG from outer parts of donut, that then CoG moves and carries rest of shape with it
.
If put case of beer in empty grocery cart
>>handles differently on turns etc. if case high, low,forward or back, from narrow or wide grips on handle bar
sharpest left is to pullback on left with bodyweight in arc as pushing arc with right from widest grip hands
Case pretty determinate of CoG in light structure of cart, all changes in handling are from CoG and grip adjustments
>>keep wide grip,all handling changes/lessons from CoG/ case adjustment
.
Mite sound like BS, but CoG very real, is whole answer to many things, can be elusive, like digesting metal donut

 

[Limbrat]

But remember doing big things don't make ye superman; imagine self more like little man in center of 1000 elephant herd with small stick gracefully urging herd home and trusting you are doing it right and that they are not having a bad day!

Great way of looking at it Spydie and very well put.

 

[Bermy]

Well, 14 hrs. for me, just my charge, no helper no extra equipment would be $910...add some $$ for the truck, travel time, a groundie, tip fees...
But part of being able to charge good money is the personal knowledge that you actually do have the capacity with both skill and equipment to do a job correctly, safely and efficiently. My hourly rate has crept up slowly over the years as I achieved these goals.
'Arborist Equipment' is ok, maybe a bit dated now though. I bought it years ago and also haven't looked at it for years.

 

[Marc-Antoine]

Rest of log architecture is just handle points to talk to the CoG thru

I like this one

 

[Tree09]

I think you are missing the point with the rigging Robert. The cog is past your knots, so you butt hitched it. You tied the knots in a way that when the piece folds over the half hitch would slide back to the running bowline, wiping everything off the end and dropping the piece. If it didn't fall this time you got lucky. If you do it like that again you can drop the piece hitting a structure or worse a ground guy. I can't tell if you tied the running bowline wrong, that's not the point I was trying to make, and if that's a possibility you need to practice so you can do it drunk in the dark behind your back. Your configuration of half hitch to choker knot is the problem. Also, you cannot slowly lower the load with a butt hitch, the cog is so far out it acts as a lever. You were able to get the tree down yes, but you need to learn that by doing it the wrong way you are getting lucky, not skillfully removing limbs over structure.

Also, while the abok is an amazing book, it was written for natural 3 strand rope. You still need to know several knots from it, but you are barking up the wrong tree. You need to get the fundamentals of general tree work. It's like 600 pages or something about cutting trees, and even goes over knots. Start there, it's what you need.

 

[theTreeSpyder]

i think luckily the texture/rot/deformations of bark Half Hitch is bedded in; stopped the slide back of Half Hitch; or perhaps HH slipped to here and stopped.
.
Also, as the Half Hitch feeds to Running Bowline; what would be the Standing Part pull to Running Bowline; the angle of rope pull within the Bowline choke
>>angle pulls to open sea; not firmly against lock of Bowline!! >>beckons Bowline to shift, slide and or open NOT lock!
BOTH grabs on load (HH and Bowline)are set to fail/open; slow tip into the bark texture frictions probably saved day
>>just as the random forces assembled for your target luckily; can assemble against and be VERY disastrous.
This work can destroy property, and make a grease spot out of you in an instant(or make you wish it had quick and clean)!
.
You didn't have positive, mechanical control of load and luckily the quarter landed on it's edge
>> cuz you were fixing to get more like heads:smash building, tails :crush head opportunity righteously
We're saying don't depend on quarter to land on edge anymore,simply not a strong hand to draw to.
>>besides, you already got your free pass that day; generally only 1 such joker in a deck!
.
As said ABoK was written 80 yrs. ago for 3's of natural fiber lines with MUCH greater frictions and less elasticity, the slippery synthetics were just appearing
>>not all info translates out but pages in book look amazingly like this LINK (thanx educated climber) should be fine as good background, lots of arts and crafts can be skipped.
Look to L-earn knot lessons, as mechanical functions, that make it easier to understand and remember how to tie and set knot; don't just run thru trying to see how many knots can memorize JUST to tie.
Tie Running Bowline around thigh while watching tv, FEEL the different angles of pull; know what tightens/loosens innately, proceed w/HH pull on thigh FEEL how a log is captured or lost!! over and over and over..
>>DO THIS WITH HOW YOU RIGGED >> FEEL / KNOW INNATELY why this is wrong!
.
With Half Hitch on butt end (D) to Bowline where HH is(B); would have been good for ending log hang;
But i believe, present HH position was needed for way he rigged as support/float hard to tell from pic alternatives
>>could HH @B and Running Bowline to E or F; but i like that before CoG forcepoint of log
>>might HH between B/C and Running Bowline to be dogged by smaller branch low between B & E
for still good support leverage by line, some pull back support added firming into hinge; 2 choke grabs inline on load before CoG formulae.
.
Mo:
On rope gives very good rope science,but not a tree book.
You see anything on knots thru internet Dan Lehman says; read it 2x!
.
fm 5-125 will probably never use stuff from it, but then again you will always be using stuff from it as raw principles (like ABoK)
>>don't need to pass a test on this, comes daily, but should be able to make farmer's sense out of why these things work etc.
>>and absorb the repetitive patterns as mechanical works, not 1 offs
.
Ropes and Friction Hitches used in Tree Climbing Operations - Paolo Bavaresco
.
Knot Knowledge
.
Industrial rope access - Investigation into items of personal protective equipment
.
Life on a Line
.
Mark Adams articles
.
Evaluation of current rigging and dismantling practices used in arboriculture
.
PACI knots used in fall protection -Mark Gommers
>>Mark Gommers and Dan Lehman probably 2 best knot minds around on anything either is quoted on or written
>>password on Mark's .pdf's is 'thankyou'
.
felling presentation pdf
.
chainsaw tech pdf
.
And mebbe if set up to watch Flash in browser:
mytreelessons.com/rl/content/Hinging-Full.swf before deprecates/defecates in 2020..
.
Too much,same over and over, seems like living, breathing,eating this at every turn?
You aren't being invited to a job but a lifestyle!
>>ain't got the taste fer it, better to find out now!
>>orchestrating all these things together at once, under intense physical strain, quick decisions on correctly aligned senses and understandings is what this life is;
>>you don't play it like that; ya get cut from team in some sense or another, Darwin will thin you from the herd!
.
i imagine this is a pro, that might have done all that, and still was almost his last day; only focused emergency pre-planning and persistence got this man outta Dodge..
Note how he immediately sights trouble and reacts , i think also FELT tree coming apart thru saw as stethoscope, F... the saw and begone to fight another day brutha!
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/9O7H9qWdquk" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
you can really see the stats of tree work being most fatally dangerous activity, 90% of deaths in 1st 5' in 1st 15seconds of felling really resounds..
.
Never forget the gift given; in being able to be allowed to float, fly yourself and command the largest beings on this Earth, that some would give anything for 1 minute of!
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/fC_j_1OvQjc" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
(Rope Rescue of a different sort muzak:"It's not Easy to be Me" from Superman.. i can't stand to fly..trying to find better part of me)
.
There are literally decades of experience and passion in your thread now for you!

 

[SeanKroll]

Do you have Art and Science of Practical Rigging or the Tree Climber's Guide books?

 

[rfwoody]

I read TreeSpyder's first post and other folk's posts...... I want to do justice to all the detail... and THANKS! EVERYONE for your time and patience and contribution of even "chiming in".

But on that aforementioned limb rigging (A,B,C,D,E,F) and COG.......

I TOTALLY get it about the knots...
TOTALLY understand where I went wrong,
about the configuration, orientation, grab, etc. of the knots
-- clear path ahead for learning about this!!!

HOWEVER.... I do NOT understand how you say the COG of that particular limb is past where the rope is (at "E")!?

That particular limb is wider at the base and narrows toward the tip... so it will be heavier to the left.

So, just by a rough mental assessment of looking at the photo, it seems obvious to me that the COG of the mere limb itself is right at where the rope is at "B" rather than at "E"

.... i.e. If that limb was taken off and set -- horizontally -- on a spike, the limb would balance right at "B"
--- this isn't Arborist/tree stuff, just simple physics and common sense, right?

THEREFORE.... because the above seems so obvious....
THEREFORE I must not be understanding what COG means -- IN THIS CONTEXT (i.e. of rigging angles, etc.)



thank you for you patience if you still wish to continue the discussion....
and I plan to go back and do justice in attention and concentration to the other posts and questions in a few hours when I have time.
THANK YOU!

 

[rfwoody]

Awe geeez, don't need to be so jr; jr.

... ha, for my own benefit knowing my propensity for conceit, being wise-in-my-own-eyes, and wanting to act a fool and argue with those who know more than me... I try to deliberately keep myself in the mental posture of a *student*

But remember doing big things don't make ye superman; imagine self more like little man in center of 1000 elephant herd with small stick gracefully urging herd home and trusting you are doing it right and that they are not having a bad day!

Thanks for the second on this, Ray. ....
... I guess this means working smart vs. working hard, and making very certain of each of the 1000's of small decisions, actions, movements, etc. one makes during the day?

Well, 14 hrs. for me, just my charge, no helper no extra equipment would be $910...add some $$ for the truck, travel time, a groundie, tip fees...
But part of being able to charge good money is the personal knowledge that you actually do have the capacity with both skill and equipment to do a job correctly, safely and efficiently. My hourly rate has crept up slowly over the years as I achieved these goals.
'Arborist Equipment' is ok, maybe a bit dated now though. I bought it years ago and also haven't looked at it for years.

Thanks a lot Bermy.

"....Rest of log architecture is just handle points to talk to the CoG thru...."

I like this one

Marc-Antoine, thanks for pointing this out.... now I need to understand it.

 

[rfwoody]

Do you have Art and Science of Practical Rigging or the Tree Climber's Guide books?

Sean, and Kyle, I have the following books and DVD's

The Fundamentals of General Tree Work (book and DVD's) -- read book and watched DVD's
All Jeff Jepson's books (including Tree Climber's Guide) -- read and studied them all
Art and Science of Practical Rigging -- (book and DVD's) -- read book and watched (most of?) DVD's
Professional Timber Falling (Douglas Dent) -- read and studied
Fallers' & Buckers' Handbook (from Worker's Compensation Board of British Columbia) -- read and studied

Plan on going back and re-reading/studying FoGTW (at least parts of it) and re-watching DVD's

I believe I need more in the field experience to work against which to apply all the above theory... correct/adjust... repeat.

 

[Limbrat]

It's mighty refreshing to see someone as humble and hungry as you are Robert. You're right on, the book and dvd study is vital, but there's a lot of book smart folks that are field stupid. Doing the work, seeing how different species hinge, putting rigging practices to work, climbing, running saws, most of the confidence and skill comes from field experience.

 

[MasterBlaster]

You'll be alright, Robert.

 

[pantheraba]

Hella reading you have done there...congrats on that. Work applications of that larnin' as you progress...since you aren't stressing about being a "production" climber, practice techniques even when they aren't needed. Sometimes I would chunk spars down 'cause I had the time available and wanted the practice. Good practice for snap cuts, cutting faces, lining up back cuts, etc. Or flat drop limbs that don't really need to be flat dropped.

 

[Bermy]

I agree, looks like you've got a great load of quality books, but nothing now will beat some real world experience...and hanging out here