Tree Removal -- My 1st Removal for Pay -- $500

[theTreeSpyder]

i'd like to echo the last 4 posts immensly
>>you have more materials than i had my first 5yrs!
.

Primary Hitch point is B.if that was CoG, would hang balanced /horizontal>> for now primary hitchpoint is pivot instead of spike
>>part of your unique rigging force is have line out far enough for support to CoG, and fortifying angle thereof fortifying back into hinge
>>if CoG was more towards C, rig load would have inverted,
>>rig woulda been right direction then, but risky/explosive move, would be more of a crane lift setup
>>i figured from day1 you woulda kinda mentioned that if inverted to butt down, rather than soft hinging of tip down
So figured CoG more in the B - E range
.
Originally Posted by theTreeSpyder
"....Rest of log architecture is just handle points to talk to the CoG thru...."
.
Marc-Antoine, thanks for pointing this out.... now I need to understand it.
>>Visualization model ; FEEL this in grocery cart with wide spread hands
>>you should be able to FEEL how different beer case/ CoG positioning is all that is different in different handlings
>>focus and can feel how all effort is against CoG (if no bad wheels etc.)
>>feel/sift out that you are handling both the shape of cart, and the forcepoint of CoG as separate items
>>only way to talk to CoG is thru architecture as handles to control CoG and ASK it to change position/orientation
But that is an ASK, CoG will win in a fight, and carry or shear shape , the force rules, see container/shape as weightless, only CoG gives it weight
>>So work to visualize CoG position correctly, and then consider how all forces on (stiff) shape affect CoG;the force point is everything,just carries shape around it as handles to CoG!
.
i can't tell you how much gymnastics and feeling forces thru my own architecture, and how to control their flows for different effects has aided me in visualizing same in loads/targets!!
i think mystical martial artists L-earning life's secrets thru movement is simply, the best way to L-earn anything is to not watch, read or even do but rather be part of the works!
There is this verbal vs. book vs. video vs. doing vs. Body Knowledge/the knowing innately,cuz look at something and Pavlovian conditioned to feel pulls on own body!
Just as philosophy of balance easier to see in all things (in mystical martial arts sense) after fight and see/feel in own self as ultimate knowledge!
Anytime hanging, swinging, pivoting on rope, visualize/empathize that rigged load on same rope 'feels' same forces you do; then will be 'common' sense toyou!

 

[stig]

Robert, what you should do is get on with somebody with experience in doing this kind of work and then learn from them.
Those of us who have been lucky enough to have a mentor, were way ahead of the rest of the pack, when we started out on our own.
My apprentices spend 3 years with me, getting their assas kicked every hour of the day, and at the end of that, they walk out in the world, knowing they can do this job.

The last one isn't walking anywhere, we've hired him

 

[rfwoody]

It's mighty refreshing to see someone as humble and hungry as you are Robert. You're right on, the book and dvd study is vital, but there's a lot of book smart folks that are field stupid. Doing the work, seeing how different species hinge, putting rigging practices to work, climbing, running saws, most of the confidence and skill comes from field experience.

Thanks a lot, Ray!
Yeah, I need to get out and "DO" for a while again to balance out and refine all the "theory" swirling around my head

 

[rfwoody]

Thanks Butch!

 

[rfwoody]

Hella reading you have done there...congrats on that. Work applications of that larnin' as you progress...since you aren't stressing about being a "production" climber, practice techniques even when they aren't needed. Sometimes I would chunk spars down 'cause I had the time available and wanted the practice. Good practice for snap cuts, cutting faces, lining up back cuts, etc. Or flat drop limbs that don't really need to be flat dropped.

Great ideas, Gary. That is what I sort of try to do but need to do more. Thanks!

 

[rfwoody]

I agree, looks like you've got a great load of quality books, but nothing now will beat some real world experience...and hanging out here

Thanks Bermy! .... yeah, I've got to be a "doer" and not just a "reader"! .... those books/dvds (and advice/knowledge here) won't do me any good if I don't apply it!

 

[rfwoody]

Robert, what you should do is get on with somebody with experience in doing this kind of work and then learn from them.
Those of us who have been lucky enough to have a mentor, were way ahead of the rest of the pack, when we started out on our own.
My apprentices spend 3 years with me, getting their assas kicked every hour of the day, and at the end of that, they walk out in the world, knowing they can do this job.

The last one isn't walking anywhere, we've hired him

Stig, that is probably the best, simplest advice I know and have heard here before... and I have been thinking about it off and on for a while.

And I have a couple of names of folks I can check with.

My hesitation is that I don't know what commitment I would be willing to give somebody.

If I go to work for somebody I want to be dependable and for them to count on me.

But I've got other responsibilities which would have to take priority over my commitment to my employer.

So I'm sort of trying to formulate a plan/approach to present to a prospective employer/mentor
Such as.... I can commit to work for you 2 days each week -- but give you (e.g.) 2 weeks prior notice on calendar days I can't make it because of previous commitments, etc. ---- so you see, it is a bit nebulous ---- but there might be somebody(s) out there who might take this niche type thing.

 

[rfwoody]

TreeSpyder, thanks for your detailed reply.... I've got to head out now and I want to give your latest post the attention it deserves.
Also, I am planning to save off somehow your other previous post where you listed all those resources! Thanks!

 

[rfwoody]

Sean, and Kyle, I have the following books and DVD's

The Fundamentals of General Tree Work (book and DVD's) -- read book and watched DVD's
All Jeff Jepson's books (including Tree Climber's Guide) -- read and studied them all
Art and Science of Practical Rigging -- (book and DVD's) -- read book and watched (most of?) DVD's
Professional Timber Falling (Douglas Dent) -- read and studied
Fallers' & Buckers' Handbook (from Worker's Compensation Board of British Columbia) -- read and studied

Plan on going back and re-reading/studying FoGTW (at least parts of it) and re-watching DVD's

I believe I need more in the field experience to work against which to apply all the above theory... correct/adjust... repeat.

.... I FORGOT! ......

I have Mr. Bernham's USFS Tree Climbing Guide on my computer... but I am so OLD SCHOOL that if I don't have a real BOOK, I forget about it... (e.g. by my desk, on the kitchen table, on my bedside table, etc.)... my loss!

I have investigated trying to get it printed out so I'll have a hard copy

 

[rfwoody]

i'd like to echo the last 4 posts immensly
>>you have more materials than i had my first 5yrs!
.

Primary Hitch point is B.if that was CoG, would hang balanced /horizontal>> for now primary hitchpoint is pivot instead of spike
>>part of your unique rigging force is have line out far enough for support to CoG, and fortifying angle thereof fortifying back into hinge
>>if CoG was more towards C, rig load would have inverted,
>>rig woulda been right direction then, but risky/explosive move, would be more of a crane lift setup
>>i figured from day1 you woulda kinda mentioned that if inverted to butt down, rather than soft hinging of tip down
So figured CoG more in the B - E range
.
Originally Posted by theTreeSpyder
"....Rest of log architecture is just handle points to talk to the CoG thru...."
.
Marc-Antoine, thanks for pointing this out.... now I need to understand it.
>>Visualization model ; FEEL this in grocery cart with wide spread hands
>>you should be able to FEEL how different beer case/ CoG positioning is all that is different in different handlings
>>focus and can feel how all effort is against CoG (if no bad wheels etc.)
>>feel/sift out that you are handling both the shape of cart, and the forcepoint of CoG as separate items
>>only way to talk to CoG is thru architecture as handles to control CoG and ASK it to change position/orientation
But that is an ASK, CoG will win in a fight, and carry or shear shape , the force rules, see container/shape as weightless, only CoG gives it weight
>>So work to visualize CoG position correctly, and then consider how all forces on (stiff) shape affect CoG;the force point is everything,just carries shape around it as handles to CoG!
.
i can't tell you how much gymnastics and feeling forces thru my own architecture, and how to control their flows for different effects has aided me in visualizing same in loads/targets!!
i think mystical martial artists L-earning life's secrets thru movement is simply, the best way to L-earn anything is to not watch, read or even do but rather be part of the works!
There is this verbal vs. book vs. video vs. doing vs. Body Knowledge/the knowing innately,cuz look at something and Pavlovian conditioned to feel pulls on own body!
Just as philosophy of balance easier to see in all things (in mystical martial arts sense) after fight and see/feel in own self as ultimate knowledge!
Anytime hanging, swinging, pivoting on rope, visualize/empathize that rigged load on same rope 'feels' same forces you do; then will be 'common' sense toyou!

Thanks a lot TreeSpyder for all your knowledge sharing.

I still don't get CoG in this scenario though and your emphasis on the criticality of CoG

I understand butt tied limb and how limb will fall.
I understand tip tied limb and how limb will fall (or flail)

In this particular situation, I think I was sort of experimenting (since it was a safe situation... I got my truck out of the way) to see if I could to some degree "control" the limb on the way down
(from the ground, slowly letting off tension of rope)
as you see where I took the picture when the hinge had closed
and the next few degrees of limb falling/rotation would break the hinge
and falling limb would be at mercy of the rigging.
... but I've forgotten exactly what was going on in my mind other than that.

So far, the main practical rigging take-aways I have from this discussion are:
1) get the knots/hitches, etc.... type of, direction, orientation, etc. (re: grabbing/holding, etc.) correct
2) Concept of Center of Gravity is important .... try to get more understanding about it.

 

[Burnham]

.... I FORGOT! ......

I have Mr. Bernham's USFS Tree Climbing Guide on my computer... but I am so OLD SCHOOL that if I don't have a real BOOK, I forget about it... (e.g. by my desk, on the kitchen table, on my bedside table, etc.)... my loss!

I have investigated trying to get it printed out so I'll have a hard copy

That pdf is set up to print on 8.5x11 paper. It's my preference, too.

 

[rfwoody]

That pdf is set up to print on 8.5x11 paper. It's my preference, too.

Yeah, "duh"! .... I've actually got a black and white laser printer which could do that (88 pages looks like).

If I printed both sides it would *almost* be like a book.... just have to figure out a suitable binding of some kind.

I wonder if any real books of this are available anywhere?

Oh well..... as valuable as this and the other resources are, sir, as others have pointed out, I need to get out and get more field experience!

But thanks for the book and thanks for pointing this out, Mr. Burnham!

 

[rfwoody]

Butch (or anybody?) ... is there a way to mark individual *posts* within a thread? (e.g. as a "favorite", etc.). Thanks.

 

[Burnham]

Yeah, "duh"! .... I've actually got a black and white laser printer which could do that (88 pages looks like).

If I printed both sides it would *almost* be like a book.... just have to figure out a suitable binding of some kind.

I wonder if any real books of this are available anywhere?

Oh well..... as valuable as this and the other resources are, sir, as others have pointed out, I need to get out and get more field experience!

But thanks for the book and thanks for pointing this out, Mr. Burnham!

The current version is only available in digital format...was never printed. That was the plan, so as to allow easy updates and cheap distribution.

You can three hole punch the pages and put them in a binder, Robert. That's my choice. Just like a book.

Older versions were printed, but to the best of my knowledge they are all long gone. It was an USFS internal document, not printed for sale.

 

[rfwoody]

The current version is only available in digital format...was never printed. That was the plan, so as to allow easy updates and cheap distribution.

You can three hole punch the pages and put them in a binder, Robert. That's my choice. Just like a book.

Older versions were printed, but to the best of my knowledge they are all long gone. It was an USFS internal document, not printed for sale.

Thanks, Mr. Burnham.

Yeah, three hole punch in a binder might be my best bet.... not my favorite, but better than online... which is very much better than nothing!

 

[MasterBlaster]

There is no way to mark individual posts in a thread.

 

[Bermy]

Geez Robert, I wish you were on my side of the planet...I'd hire you on those terms
Just what I need, a sensible person who isn't looking for five days a week work, just enough to help me out when I need an extra pair of hands...

 

[theTreeSpyder]

CoG examples are all around, because it rules>>example:1 of those hand spinners:
>>low friction bearing pivot
>>very light body/arms >> but stiff/inflexible for conservation of energy/no loss of force
Weight purposefully at end of stiff arm, purposefully miss-apportioned to put CoG way on outside of arc>>spin
>>CoG on outer part of arc is force cranking thru inflexible arm to low friction bearing to try to keep going longest
If weight balance /CoG was further towards center on arm/ but still total weight
>> CoG wouldn't have as much leverage over bearings, and not persist as long
>>would be carrying same load with same input power from inertia of CoG but less leverage to fight bearing frictions
(edit: a metal, heavier better made spinner will exemplify principals better, can feel difference)
Same shape, weight, different CoG position defines the whole movement/work around pivot
>>spar or tree in imagery is like weightless/ super strong shell (theoretical unubtanium element, but now i guess we can say graphene matrix!) with huge lead disk in it
>>position of disk in spar or tree, defines forcepoint for all how to make it move/or stop it considerations around hinge pivot,
>>where stretched and compressed fibers are, and thus tapered/dutchman regions etc. in hinge will be changed if move disk(that forms CoG in tree)
.
The load CoG is the INITIATING force; it then DEFINES the compressed part of the hinge position(as pivot) and loading in RESPONSE
>>this then in chain DEFINES where and to what loading the leveraged tension fibers are set in RESPONSE to CoG>>pivot forces
change CoG changes EVERYTHING; it is the INITIATING force; everything else is in RESPONSE or simply set AGAINST CoG

 

[rfwoody]

Geez Robert, I wish you were on my side of the planet...I'd hire you on those terms
Just what I need, a sensible person who isn't looking for five days a week work, just enough to help me out when I need an extra pair of hands...

Thanks Bermy! .... that there gives me a nudge in the right direction!

 

[JeffGu]

The most important thing is that you are objective and critical of your own work... which will keep you learning better techniques. You also know when to ask for help and suggestions, which is a hard thing for most folks to do but essential to learning to do things correctly. It's too soon in your new career to get yourself in too deep, so stick with extreme caution and taking small pieces! Ladders are sometimes useful in tree work, but don't cut from one. Use them to get up to a good position, then switch over to lanyard/climbline combo to make the cut. So, yeah... get some climbing gear and start playing with it. You'll enjoy it all more, and feel lots safer when you know that the chunk of wood you're about to let fly won't knock you to the ground. Plus, it's a great way to eat up all that extra cash laying around... there's always another tool that will simplify the work and make it safer, which helps rationalize buying new toys... er... tools.

 

[Bermy]

^^^^ Great post and I love the last line

 

[Eric H-L]

[Plus, it's a great way to eat up all that extra cash laying around... there's always another tool that will simplify the work and make it safer, which helps rationalize buying new toys... er... tools.[/QUOTE]

Preach , brother!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[rfwoody]

The most important thing is that you are objective and critical of your own work... which will keep you learning better techniques. You also know when to ask for help and suggestions, which is a hard thing for most folks to do but essential to learning to do things correctly. It's too soon in your new career to get yourself in too deep, so stick with extreme caution and taking small pieces! Ladders are sometimes useful in tree work, but don't cut from one. Use them to get up to a good position, then switch over to lanyard/climbline combo to make the cut. So, yeah... get some climbing gear and start playing with it. You'll enjoy it all more, and feel lots safer when you know that the chunk of wood you're about to let fly won't knock you to the ground. Plus, it's a great way to eat up all that extra cash laying around... there's always another tool that will simplify the work and make it safer, which helps rationalize buying new toys... er... tools.

Ha, thanks JeffGu.