Tree Removal -- My 1st Removal for Pay -- $500

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theTreeSpyder said:
i'd say depending on it's disposition, this could have pulled open etc.?
Lots of back pressure into hinge as a ball/socket with this rope angle; instead of situation of not enough pre-tighten; this can self pre-tighten too much, whereby relief of tension /steam is necessary or can came back at climber hard; this almost killed me when distracted groundie didn't relieve tension as i screamed to..
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Generally would have (moving down branch from saw) cut/leveraged length/Half Hitch/Running Bowline etc. as final hitch/Center of gravity/rest of log.
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i assume the center of gravity is outside the roped region
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The pressure on twists ; seems to have kept lacing on branch.
Generally want preceding Half Hitch to pull close, then further DOWN branch have final anchoring knot.
>>hitch alone gives single grab; resistance to Standing Part pull is more angle leveraged against line
>>Preceding with Half Hitch puts gives double grab and Standing Part resistor INLINE to the pull, then feeds to final anchoring knot.
single knot generally wants to pull across 90degrees to spar, special thing to pull inline down the column length/long axis on load
>>or rope as our climbing hitches do
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so after cut and when branch hanging VERTICAL (unless balanced/ballast against self ):
ABoK chapter_22:Lengthwise Pull (pre-ramble/opening statement):
"To withstand a lengthwise pull without slipping is about the most that can be asked of a hitch. Great care must be exercised in tying the following series of knots, and the impossible must not he expected..."
>>rig worked,but not as positive mechanic of rope lock on branch for my tastes.
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On the anchoring /final knot (against force flow thru line) seems a Running Bowline:
i'd prefer this mechanic too , to pull close , not open, and really to be topside/not around side
>>if anything pulling fromother side some to once again lock at end of eye/not pulling into open area of eye?
>>and to be further downstream , with a Half Hitch preceding it/not back towards saw.
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Length between cut and 1st hitch to branch can be a support lever; plenty given here.
>>rig would not have worked near as well/if at all; if knots reversed in position ;
>>would have same first grab point,maybe less length but run final knot towards other end of log/not towards cut, perhaps dogging final Bowline/Clove at branching; but i like to keep Center of Gravity outside of this range too.


Not Sure no how cut is faced; but i think i'd offer downwards towards reader as path of least resistance to roll forward into;
>>especially with the leveraged rope tension giving a lot of float; looking at rope angle of pullback towards sawyer as a spice, sprinkled in very lightly; too much and can take sawyer out pretty hard.
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i really,really do like how you rigged this first after clearing the way YET saving any potential critical offside rigging positions ~AND~ the offside ballast rather than throwing them away just to look like doing something!
Click to expand...

haha, TreeSpyder, maybe one day, Lord willing, I will be able to follow closely what you are saying! :) ... (your comments remind me of talking details of database performance tuning between two people who really know that they are talking about :)

Thanks a lot for all your detailed and technical comments, and yet not all that technical for y'all who know what you are doing, right?

>>> NOTE: I went back and slowly re-read this again and now I see the whole thing is an exhaustive analysis of this particular rigging (duh?) ..... all I can say is that this is the level of detail and thoughts and analysis and decision points I want to be able to do (if I stay healthy and continue in this) in my mind in a split second -- like TreeSpyder and many of y'all no doubt do all the time!

All I can say on this particular rigging is that I was really just "winging" it, but based on some experience with hinges, training and reading and watching... along with "common sense", and a minor rigging failure or two on this same job, and based on all that tried to "visualize"/judge what the branch and rigging would do from the final cut all the way to slowly letting it down. (p.s. I forgot how to tie a running bowline so this is probably just some make-do knot).

As I plan to review some of G.F. Beranek's works in the next few days, I will try to keep the concepts and terminology in mind that you mentioned here.
 
I don't know of anyone who can truly follow what Kenny posts. Some claim they can but he tends to use a lot of synonyms and other words incorrectly so it is intentionally confusing. I refuse to try any more.
 
Aw bit harsh Brian...I can't always follow Kenny's posts and admit to some major skimming, but he means nothing but the best.
 
Admittedly I haven't bothered trying much in the last several years. Back in the early days of Arboristsite 15 years ago he wasn't bad, but after a while he got completely incomprehensible. For a while I tried pointing out to him that he couldn't help others if they couldn't read his posts but it was like talking to a rock. I try not to care but all these years later he's still intentionally confusing and people are still nice to him about it for some reason.
 
Well just about everyone here has a foible...as long as a foible doesn't make one a dickhead, why not be nice?
I don't think he's 'intentionally' confusing...just confusing.

S'all good Brian...:)
 
rfwoody_rig_points.png

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To my eye:
A>is a helpful angle; pulling load back into hinge as part of support; but on a bad day; if not enough line tension relief can fold back and hit climber
B>pull angle looks backwards to me and leveraged against line (will draw out below)
C>to me should run opposite direction towards E, force should come from A, pass thru B to straight line to E/F
D>looks like Running Bowline , That C is pulling to open part of eye, could pull Bowline open/unlock choke position,i'd rotate around so that C pull locks against eye rope, not to open area
E>this is where i'd want the Center of Gravity for the log, outside both hitch points to log, pulling hitch points close. See center of gravity as force point that powers rig
F>i'd consider locking running Bowline here, after a preceding Half Hitch back towards cut
>>Generally would have (moving down branch from saw) cut/leveraged length/Half Hitch/Running Bowline etc. as final hitch/Center of gravity/rest of log.
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Angles of concern: To me B & D are both points that could slip some/even pull open; and angle A could kill if not watched and danced with properly!
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Severe angle of rope/tension as control, can overwhelm if increased.
>>if top is 12 noon, and towards reader is 3pm, would face towards reader, slightly downward to about 4:30pm
>>with hinge tapered to pull towards reader; offer tension relief to line; try to get the marble/log to seek out and happily go to hole/path of least resistance offered/face
>>As gravity pulled down i'd probably have far side of face close(but not seize motion) in Dutchman, offer only towards reader path of least resistance
>>might have rope on very tip end of log to initially force stronger hinge by forcing earlier first folding of hinge and back saw off, force meatier hinge
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Most new guys i ever seen, cut off the offside/easy cuts that could give ballast to loading of rig side, and also sometimes been rig or life line supports
>>making job immediately 10x harder and more dangerous for next guy
>>congrats for not just cutting possible critical helpers just to look like getting job done!
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Always, and all ways; look at the Center of Gravity(CoG) of a non bending load; to be like a point that gravity is cabled to and pulling exclusively from downward.
We want to take control of the shape, and CoG forcepoint both, can settle for CoG only and shape will follow easier than CoG following shape!(edit:guess that needs more explanation/later)
Visually measure scenario from this CoG point to the most loaded pivot point, then to all pushes pulls from that pivot point.
Trace force path like an electrical diagram of force flow; only with geometric consequence /distance angles matter unlike in electrical wiring.
>>This makes distance between primary load hitch (HH) and hinge a leveraged arm (after tearoff becomes ballast)
When rope rig helping thru hinging/before tear-off; hinge is pivot, until rope takes most of load off hinge, and primary rope hitch becomes pivot/ sudden pivotal change in mechanics; giving different effects/mechanical reverses to play with!
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Please review work, disposals, proposed technical surgical prowess proposed vs. price; jest sayin..







in progress...
 
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  • #35
Thanks for the extra detailed explanations and diagrams TreeSpyder.

When you say "congrats for not just cutting possible critical helpers..." .... are you referring to "E", "F", and/or to end of branch?
 
No,actually the whole left side of tree ballasts against pulls towards house; and maintains more of original sprung position/so 'tighter', both stabilizing tree thru rigging pulls phase, and offers more clearance (if left side weight was relieved, could expect house side to sit down farther /not up in trade!)
Have come behind too many guys that cut that off and even center mast you are using, then try to figure out harder part, after making it more impossible..
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Always have a rigging plan;
>>always play/run that maze in head backwards as checksum, and to see around corners and not paint yourself into one!
>>always have an escape plan; play/run that maze backwierds....
 
Hahahaha Sean.

Basically you rigged it incorrectly. The way you rigged it the tip fell, and the knots were oriented in such a way that at best they slipped and shock loaded, or worse slipped off completely. If you had moved what you tied all the way out towards the tip, you would be ok. The half hitch or marl is used to take force from the knot and provide a more secure knot due to increased friction, not to reposition the rigging point.

When you are taking a tree down, you need to have a reason and goal when you start rigging. Then you determine what rigging methods will help you achieve that goal. When your rigging point is behind you, as it was with that cut, the piece will swing back to be beneath it. So as rigged, you set it up to wipe you off the limb. I assume you were attempting to not crush something directly beneath the limb, so rigging was a good idea, either butt or tip tying it and leaving the piece that big probably would drop too far and crush what you were trying to protect. So you attempted to tie it in the middle, but that lets it swing and drop wildly. What you needed to do is add a spider leg, and tie both the tip and the butt, and then to control which way it swings, a tag line on the tip to pull it where you want it to go. Your face notch needed to be in the direction of the swing, and then you put yourself on the side with the back cut to put you in the safe zone.

Another quicker, easier, and safer option would be to just take it in a couple of cuts, either adding a block or natural crotch to act as a redirect for the rigging line, eliminating the swing completely. You need room directly underneath of you to do that, but you obviously had that there.

You really need to learn this stuff, because when you are in the tree with the next one, you can hurt yourself pretty badly if you can't control the piece or the rigging line. If you haven't already, do yourself a huge favor and buy the newly released digital copy of the fundamentals of tree work. It is very affordable, and will teach you all of this and more. Also check out climbing arborist and treemuggs websites, along with the isa channel on YouTube. They all have very good beginner videos to help you learn these concepts.

Dude, I want you to succeed, but more importantly, not be hurt in your newfound venture. You are over 60 years old, so not to be ageist, but maybe starting climbing wouldn't be the best idea. I could be wrong, but I think you would be better off just working from a lift. The guy who got me into trees can't climb at all, he does all of his work from a lift. He makes wayyyyyyyyyy more money than me, but he has the equipment. In the next one, rent a lift for a few hundred, and then figure it into the bid. $500 for that tree, hauling everything away, is wayyyyyyyyyy too low.
 
:/: Hmmm, don't you dare be ageist now boy, you hear!! 8)
IMO when we see new tree workers here on the forum, generally the older ones are more cautious and willing to take advice...who remembers Jose..:|:

Having just gotten a copy of 'Fundamentals', I have to say that my background and experience already in tree work is really helping when reading the book. I like lots of pictures or to be shown things, so reading through it, at least I can already have a mental picture of what is being discussed and described.
Coming at it from your end woody, you will probably find that as you take on more work, parts of the book you have read will all of a sudden make you go Ah HA!!
A key for you right now will be to only take on jobs that you can honestly cope with, those with relatively low risk. The combination of successfully completing each job, reflecting on how it all went based on the plan you came up with at the start, and reading the 'Fundamentals' should see you progress steadily.
 
Maybe more wood in the base than I originally thought. I'd guess it might take 3-4 hours, with the right equipment, no lift, solo.


Measuring trees is important. My hand is 8" from heel to finger tip. Two hands- 16", three hands, 24". My elbow to finger tip is 20". I don't have to have a tape measure all the time.


If you're using the stick trick, the tip of a straight pole will land 6' behind your 6' tall head, as its on the hypotenuse. Lean will affect things.

If you can stand way back from the tree (more horizontal perspective), and hold a small stick vertically out in front of you, with the stick-tip on the tree-tip, and adjust your hand so that your hand is visually at the ground level, you can pivot the stick over 90* and see where the tree tip will hit, if felled at ground level with no forward movement. Adjust for your stump height, and forward travel off the stump.
 
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  • #43
Haven't had time yet to read the latest posts to do them justice, but what would y'all have charged to remove a similar tree? .... was $500 to much or too little?
 
It's all relative Robert. Markets are different all over the country. Work in the city is generally more costly than that in the country. For someone in another part of the country to tell you what to charge for a tree in North Mississippi wouldn't be realistic. Your best bet would be to talk to local arborists to get a general feel for your area. And then there's the human factor in all that too. We do a lot of freebies and low bids for widows and vets. Whatever you and the customer find fair and agreeable is great. Of course you need to make a profit. Along with that, doing quality work, having a good reputation and being able to sleep well means a lot.
 
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