How'd it go today?
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FireFighterZero
Captain Zero!
In my fairly informed opinion......the erosion problem associated with organic farming is more problematic than the chemicals used in conventional or no till farming.
The loss of topsoil has been catastrophic.
What we are trying to do is take the good parts of no till and the better parts of organic and blend them.
We would not be farming organic if it weren't for the money.
FireFighterZero
Captain Zero!
FireFighterZero
Captain Zero!
I have found that far and away...our problems stem from fertility issues rather than moisture.
When a field is followed there is sometimes more moisture, but with modern ag practices....there will be more fertility available.
Mainly because of poor soil health....weirdly.
Healthy soils cycle nutrients faster...negating the need for a fallow year to cycle crop residues into fertility available to the seedlings.
Most soils are unhealthy....including organic ground.
The wind, sun and rain of the fallow year do the job...but it takes longer....and is not as effective.
You may not believe it...but only a quarter of the rainfall we get is used by a growing plant....the rest is lost to leaching or evaporation.
So, in other words....fallow does not necessarily mean more moisture. Its just how you need to get poor soils to raise a decent crop.
Unless you farm like me that is.
When a field is followed there is sometimes more moisture, but with modern ag practices....there will be more fertility available.
Mainly because of poor soil health....weirdly.
Healthy soils cycle nutrients faster...negating the need for a fallow year to cycle crop residues into fertility available to the seedlings.
Most soils are unhealthy....including organic ground.
The wind, sun and rain of the fallow year do the job...but it takes longer....and is not as effective.
You may not believe it...but only a quarter of the rainfall we get is used by a growing plant....the rest is lost to leaching or evaporation.
So, in other words....fallow does not necessarily mean more moisture. Its just how you need to get poor soils to raise a decent crop.
Unless you farm like me that is.
FireFighterZero
Captain Zero!
The funny thing about organic soils is that they are just as low on organic matter as the conventional soils. Often more deficient.
You cant improve soils with tillage...in fact you make them worse. At least with conventional farming you can replace what you are taking out to a certain degree.
An awful, awful lot of the large scale organic operations use tillage.
Monoculture organic farming with tillage and fallow years is devastating to the soils.
NRCS's soil fertility and health maps bear this out. According to them....we are truly in a free fall.
That is not to say that all organic producers are doing it wrong.
Its just most of the big ones.
Tilled soil holds less water, has less biology, is hotter, finer and has less organic matter.
When you add fallow and take away fertilizer.......you have the Dust Bowl and dead soils.
You cant improve soils with tillage...in fact you make them worse. At least with conventional farming you can replace what you are taking out to a certain degree.
An awful, awful lot of the large scale organic operations use tillage.
Monoculture organic farming with tillage and fallow years is devastating to the soils.
NRCS's soil fertility and health maps bear this out. According to them....we are truly in a free fall.
That is not to say that all organic producers are doing it wrong.
Its just most of the big ones.
Tilled soil holds less water, has less biology, is hotter, finer and has less organic matter.
When you add fallow and take away fertilizer.......you have the Dust Bowl and dead soils.
So what are you doing to make it work?
FireFighterZero
Captain Zero!
We are building the soils by planting cover and grazing crops.
Incorporating the nutrients with livestock, and reducing tillage and erosion by having living roots in the soils as long as possible.
Incorporating the nutrients with livestock, and reducing tillage and erosion by having living roots in the soils as long as possible.
FireFighterZero
Captain Zero!
Chit is getting complicated
Can you tell a bit about what is no till farming and the pros and cons?
No till farming is just that.....no till.
As little soil disturbance as possible.....often times only to seed.
Benefits are increased organic matter, higher soil moisture, better soil aggregation, cooler soils, less erosion, and the ability to catch snow and the potential for mycorizal fungi.
Down sides are of course having to use herbicides and pesticides. Usually fertilizer too.
FireFighterZero
Captain Zero!
If you are going to fallow your ground....by far and away no till is the way to go.
If you schit can fallow like us....a mix of min till and cover crops is the way to go.
If you schit can fallow like us....a mix of min till and cover crops is the way to go.
murphy4trees
TreeHouser
True, but even if they did they/me wouldn't care. Especially with fruits and veggies, where residual pesticide is really a thing. We've even gone so far as getting eggs now from a buddy who has chickens and ducks. They are walking around everywhere when you go there, and the quality difference is astonishing. That's not to say i don't eat non organic stuff, but there is a huge quality (and price) difference in fruits especially.
FireFighterZero
Captain Zero!
Trouble is that the loss of our topsoil will kill us before the cancer!
It isn't that there are just some downsides......they are disastrous. Organic is not sustainable.
You can blend anything you want Cory. You cant sell what you produce as organic though. Organic is mostly about the money. Mostly.
What is heads and shoulders above the rest is "Regenerative" ag. Organic and No till dont even come close.
Cover crops, diverse rotations, polycultures, and livestock.
Its the only system that does not mine the soil, or require expensive synthetic amendments.
The next big industry is "organic" fertilizer and herbicides.
Not talking about cow shit either.......man made, refined fertilizer that looks just like the stuff you buy from the garden store.
Thats staying within the organic spirit aint it???!
It isn't that there are just some downsides......they are disastrous. Organic is not sustainable.
You can blend anything you want Cory. You cant sell what you produce as organic though. Organic is mostly about the money. Mostly.
What is heads and shoulders above the rest is "Regenerative" ag. Organic and No till dont even come close.
Cover crops, diverse rotations, polycultures, and livestock.
Its the only system that does not mine the soil, or require expensive synthetic amendments.
The next big industry is "organic" fertilizer and herbicides.
Not talking about cow shit either.......man made, refined fertilizer that looks just like the stuff you buy from the garden store.
Thats staying within the organic spirit aint it???!
There is zero reason that this system can't be done organically, correct?
It gets confusing when you discuss a failed system as defining 'it' when in reality, you are pointing out the failures not the potential of the system.
As it stands, industrial organics suck, but that does not mean that organic must be bad.
FireFighterZero
Captain Zero!
Its hard to even consider our system as "organic" when we are so far removed from the typical organic farmer.
But yes, we are implementing a Regenerative system on our organic acres. Partly out of self defense from our organic neighbors.
It matters greatly how your organic food is produced. If it is produced using any other method other than in a Regenerative manner.....it should be thrown at the nearest cyclist.
There is great potential in the system, but this greatness has not been realized.
But yes, we are implementing a Regenerative system on our organic acres. Partly out of self defense from our organic neighbors.
It matters greatly how your organic food is produced. If it is produced using any other method other than in a Regenerative manner.....it should be thrown at the nearest cyclist.
There is great potential in the system, but this greatness has not been realized.
FireFighterZero
Captain Zero!
Of course, crop insurance and banking interests are huge hurdles that stand in the way of a properly run organic farm.
FireFighterZero
Captain Zero!
murphy4trees
TreeHouser
I read half this book before giving it away to a master's student in environmental sciences. Montgomery's theory is that the main reason civilizations have collapsed in the past is because of soil depletion. It could be the soil that gives out before the water.
It makes a lot of sense.
It makes a lot of sense.
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