In The News...

[FireFighterZero]

I knew a kid who was making minimum while I was in college.......while still paying union dues.

Did him a lot of good you know.


The way I figure Stephen....we should not put up road blocks for people. Why not let them work?

 

[CurSedVoyce]

I believe if you really want and need to work, most likely you will find something. May not always be want you know or want .....but.
There was one time in MA during the 80s that finding work was extremely difficult for me. I had worked my way up to press operator in a factory. When the factory was purchased by an overseas company, a lot of us lost our jobs. A lot of people lost jobs back then in other areas of mfg. Robotics and computers took some of them. Automation. And there was a recession going on. Less product needed to be mfg. I took the unemployment while I looked. Buggered my toe on a lawn mower and the temp disability helped. Then they had a program to retrain me through the unemployment office after my toe healed. State paid all my wages except .50 per hour by a company willing to train me. I can't remember for how long. But obviously cheaper at min wage for the unemployment insurance and it gave me work and a new trade that paid better later. Not near what I made at the previous factory, but enough for the time coupled with a part time gig I put together for myself. Seemed a good program for the times.

 

[kevin bingham]

Hehehe. I did not know some people were still forced to work.

Figured you could still quit and go get a different job..........mind blown.

So your opinion is that line clearance should be a dangerous low pay job done by the lowest common denominator? I guess thats valid we should all just be money movers..

 

[Tree09]

Right to work means you aren't legally obligated to pay dues. It doesn't mean you get to work or something. They name shit like that to sound good.

Stephen, are you still in the ua then?

 

[CurSedVoyce]

No. There came a point in my life I ended up poorly and had to let it go.

 

[treesmith]

Hehehe. I did not know some people were still forced to work.

Figured you could still quit and go get a different job..........mind blown.

So your opinion is that line clearance should be a dangerous low pay job done by the lowest common denominator? I guess thats valid we should all just be money movers..

I think y'all are looking at it from two very different perspectives. I grew up in the country...dirt road...likely closer to Jim's world. (Nowhere near as much open country here!) I figure my view to be more like Jim's...if you don't like it, quit and find something else. From what I understand, things aren't always that easy in big cities. Therefore a different mindset.

Kevin you keep coming back to line clearance and its low pay (not sure why)...back in 1985, I hired on with Asplundh at $5.05/hour. Seemed fabulous after sacking groceries for $3.40/hour. In '86, I topped out at $7.63. I thought I had the world by the tail. We worked hard and turned out good ROWs. Nowadays, the current outfits run Garraffs, and their product is pathetic. When they trimmed down our road, the jerks were so lazy they wouldn't even flip the brush that landed in the road out of the road. I believe a GOOD WORKER will turn out GOOD WORK, whether he's making big bucks or just getting by. I believe a dog will be a dog, regardless of how much you pay him. It has more to do with who he is, than what he's paid, IMO.

 

[kevin bingham]

your in Alabama correct? it is right to work I imagine. I bring up line clearance as it is the only union I personally know people in. previous to Michigan becoming rtw, line clearance guys were paid very well and had a great training and apprenticeship program. ince then it has been undercut by hack crews. There has been a real loss of morale and pride in what they are doing. there used to be a local 17 climbing comp for example. not so much anymore. they still are holding it together but it has been a hit.

 

[FireFighterZero]

They are looking for carpenters.

 

[treesmith]

I understand completely, but I maintain that it has just as much (if not more) to do with individual integrity than union/non-union situation. There was talk of unionizing back in the 80s here. Alabama Power wouldn't hear of it. I can understand that. They previously had their own tree crews, which were part of their union. Later, they began contracting out to non-union folks...Asplundh, Southern, Davey, etc...as they could get the same product for less money. I can understand that choice. I can remember Alabama Power pickups running around reading meters. Then Asplundh got that job too. Now, our meters are radio-transmitting, so no one reads them any more.

I just don't see where a union's existence somehow "fixes" issues. I'm trying to grasp it, but I haven't yet seen it. I see it more in factory type settings, and in the old days...coal mines, railroad, etc. But having been in line clearance for 7-1/2 years, I don't see where being a part of a union would have helped me at all.

 

[treesmith]

They are looking for carpenters.

Funny you should mention carpenters, Jim.

I roofed for 17 years, along with my tree work. Back in the 90s, Alabama got on the bandwagon with everyone else about "contractor licensing". In order to be a bonafide contractor, you had to have a "license". I roofed for quite a few contractors, as well as for the public. One guy I knew had quit his job at a plant to go full-time in building, after a number of years building part-time. He was able to "grandfather" in on the contractor license, due to how long he had been "in the field". And while he was a likable guy, there is no way I would hire him to build for me. I am rather a perfectionist when it comes to building, and so I am painfully slow, but I believe what I leave behind will reflect who I am.

Does Builder "X" purchasing a license, passing an exam, paying his dues/fees, guarantee that he will turn out good work? Absolutely not. Would forcing a master craftsman to be part of your "club" make him any better at his craft? Absolutely not.

At one point I was booked for over a year. Not a one of those customers hired me because of my certs, as I had none. What I DID have, however, was a track record of quality work. I popped lines on two-story houses where no one would ever see whether the shingles were straight or not. I wish I had a dollar for every shingle I tore off where they didn't pop lines...

 

[Tree09]

Alright, let's try this. Here's a map of right to work states. Lol I especially love the "forced union" thing, that's priceless.



Now here's of map of the line clearance occupation, by pay. This is from the department of labor.



Do you notice anything? The right to work areas have lower pay. If your goal was to make less money for you and your family, then you succeeded. Of course this only tells part of the story. The union ones are more likely to have better benefits too, which is part of your pay. Furthermore, if you have a grievance with your employer, like if they mess up your paycheck or are violating safety laws, guess who has an easier time fixing it? But congrats, you stuck it to the man. I often joke if we let the south unionize first, even strippers would be unionized lol.

 

[FireFighterZero]

Woweee! Montanas highest paid workers are tree trimmers.

Whoda thunk it?

I cant believe that anyone would do anything else in this state.


Gosh, I want to live in those Dark blue states........I am sure the cost of living is reeeeeaaallll low.

 

[Fiddler]

MI cost of living was about 11% under national average in '17.

Since the election things like gas & groceries have been steadily and quickly climbing again though.

 

[treesmith]

Kyle, I am asking this as nicely as I know how...please explain to me how a union's existence somehow makes a given occupation pay more?

 

[Mick!]

Srsly? You don’t know or even have a suspicion as to why?

 

[treesmith]

I climbed for Asplundh for 5 years and ran a crew for 2-1/2. There was talk of unionizing then. We knew we'd lose our jobs if we went union. I fail to see how having a union card would put food on the table.

I don't see how, outside violence/force, a union magically fixes America's ills.

No one forced me to climb for $5.05 an hour. I was happy to do so. Even in those days, we saw the fallacy of Asplundh. GFs and up got retirement and benefits. Crew foremen and climbers only got hourly pay and a week of vacation. To have required Asplundh to do more would only have resulted in job-cutting.

 

[Mick!]

Who told you you’d lose your jobs if you went Union?

 

[Tree09]

Well, a union is a group of people that collectively bargain for wages, work conditions, and benefits. What that means is that the workers stand together, and then pay rates are discussed with the owners. Law requires somewhat transparency with the actual books, so they bargain with facts. Cost of living is taken into account, and when they are all done, a contract that the workers and owners agreed on is law. In non union businesses, the employer sets a wage and work conditions, and then tries to hire people. Between the two models, guess which one will have higher pay? Pay is also only part of the equation, because in a union contract, benefits are spelled out as well, and are a large portion of the overall per hour number. On top of that, most unions provide training, sometimes mandatory training, to stay on top of changing technologies and to make their members more valuable to the employer. It's a give and take thing when done right.

 

[treesmith]

Who told you you’d lose your jobs if you went Union?

The company we were contracted to. The whole point of hiring Asplundh was that, as non-union, we worked cheaper than union folk.

That's my point. Three guys can buy a ladder and a truck and start a painting outfit. They can call themselves a union. But they can't go into a town and force folks to pay whatever wage they demand. Folks will just hire someone else. (Frivolous example, but feasible.)

 

[Mick!]

Am I missing something?

 

[treesmith]

I guess it's just me missing something.

I'm trying....just can't grasp it yet.

I see where they were needed back in the old days...coal mines, RRs, etc. I see how their collective voice brought better pay/benefits/workplace safety to the table. But in my lifetime, and limited experience with them (my dad was a union member), I haven't seen much benefit. I remember him telling stories of a guy who was always falling asleep on the job. He was fired, but the union represented him at arbitration, and so he got to stay on. How is that beneficial? A scab, sleeping on the job (repeatedly), can't be fired because the union has his back. In that case, the union is a negative, in my book. And the strike stories didn't endear me to them either.

 

[Tree09]

You couldn't be fired for attempting to unionize, that goes against several labor laws. If you were, you would be entitled to a large compensation. If you remember, they would have only verbally said that, because putting that in writing would literally cost them millions. That is how clear the law is on owner intimidation, but it is a common practice to try to scare people from standing up for their rights.

You could not just call your three person painting outfit a union. You could become a union company though. If you met the criteria of a contractor in the painters union in your location, you could become what is known as a signatory contractor.

Line clearance workers are represented by the electrician's union. The electricians also represent construction electricians, utility workers, and lineman. In different locations throughout the country, they will have and will repeat every so many years negotiations on behalf of its members. The people who do this negotiation are elected by the people in that area, which are known as locals. After the contract is negotiated, they come back to the membership and then the contract is voted upon. If it passes, that's all there is and the pay rates take place upon the agreed-upon dates, if it doesn't pass, it is renegotiated. Everything is done by a democracy, everyone who is in any position of power in a union is elected by the members of that actual Union or local.

 

[treesmith]

I guess what was actually expressed was that the whole reason we had the job was that we worked cheaper than their own union workers. If we went union, and our wages went up, they'd simply hire their own.

 

[Tree09]

And then there's that. Up here they would have likely called them on that bluff, but then again we are in very different parts of the country. They actually voted on rtw in this state a few years ago, actually put forth by the democrats lol. 72-0 against, 15 republicans didn't vote. It's like that here. Chicago is huge, but the rest of the state is normal America. But the labor struggle is remembered and alive here, although in the more rural areas is playing with going non union in certain professions. The uaw and other factory unions have been crushed here, teachers and other public sector unions are declining, construction is actually going more union around here. They aren't perfect, they aren't for everyone, but it has been the best thing for me and my family in my life by a long shot. Believe it or not, I'm not the anti Christ because of it either. I'm not rich by any means, I'm middle class, at the moment probably mid middle class, but it's given me a life that can support a family.

 

[cory]

Okay. I did not watch all of it......what'cha wanna know?

What was with the blow torch treatments to the udder areas?