Ought to be "right to keep what you earn"....
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Ought to be "right to keep what you earn"....
kevin bingham
TreeHouser
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or the right to earn pennies in unsafe conditions and no representation. see what line clearance workers in "right to work" states earn compared to union states.
So how does a bureaucratic brainchild "fix" that? I think unions were a good idea years go, but they have outlived their usefulness. I think unions are, for the most part, just like the politicians running this country.
The right to work, as I understand it, deals with unions and their iron-fisted way of running over folks. The plant my parents both retired from (General Tire), struck some years back. A handful of salary workers and a few temps kept the plant running while the union tried to negotiate whatever it was "it" wanted. I was doing a job for a guy who happened to be one of those salary workers who continued to work. When I arrived at his home, he had a sign out announcing that the driveway had been tacked. Some lowlife trash got his panties in a bunch over this guy continuing to work, so he went to the trouble to tack the guy's driveway. I don't know how things are done elsewhere, but if I see someone tacking my driveway, I won't be invoking a bureaucratic brainchild to make him stop. I figure the business end of a Remington Tac-14 would be a bit more persuasive.
The right to work, as I understand it, deals with unions and their iron-fisted way of running over folks. The plant my parents both retired from (General Tire), struck some years back. A handful of salary workers and a few temps kept the plant running while the union tried to negotiate whatever it was "it" wanted. I was doing a job for a guy who happened to be one of those salary workers who continued to work. When I arrived at his home, he had a sign out announcing that the driveway had been tacked. Some lowlife trash got his panties in a bunch over this guy continuing to work, so he went to the trouble to tack the guy's driveway. I don't know how things are done elsewhere, but if I see someone tacking my driveway, I won't be invoking a bureaucratic brainchild to make him stop. I figure the business end of a Remington Tac-14 would be a bit more persuasive.
The whole point of a strike is to completely shut down production, which makes management actually come to the table to discuss a contract. This and other tactics are the only way the working class is able to actually effect the owners enough to make them change, and their efforts have given us the weekend, 8 hour day, end of child labor, overtime pay, and a much safer workplace. While working conditions have dramatically improved over the last 100 years, unions are still needed to keep things that way and improve wages, which are falling rapidly in our society. They are run by blue collar workers, and have made many mistakes over the years. But blaming them while ignoring management's role in mistakes and unfair practices is wrong. Management, and their rich elite class, are the ones that gave us globalization and a whole metric shit ton of other ways to lower the standard of living for the working class here, and unions are about the only thing even trying to stand in their way. Yes they play in the political arena, but only because they have to in order to effect change. I'm sorry your friend was singled out for scabbing, but in the day, and depending on the industry, even now, that kind of retaliation happens.
Yes! It is something that people need to think about. It is the giving of power and control to others in the first place, that starts the slow eroding of freedom.
We vote for our representatives in the union, and they are dudes that I work with. The politicians in this country are controlled by lobbyists and the rich. They go to school to be politicians. The union lobbyists and representatives are working class people, who are nominated, elected, then pressed into service for that kind of work. They couldn't be further apart.
So you'd have no qualms with someone tacking your driveway to prevent you from working, due to someone else deciding you shouldn't? And that's mild. There are plenty of stories of union-sponsored violence toward those who dared rock the boat. I know unions had a usefulness years ago. But time has a way of fixing things on its own. Would you climb on a compromised climb line if a union rep told you it was safe? What if your job was non-union, and you were hard-up and needed the job...would you climb on it then? Sometimes there is no substitute for standing up for yourself.
To clarify....it's one thing for a union to pursue safer work practices...better wages/benefits/etc....it's another thing entirely for them to attempt to dictate what INDIVIDUAL AMERICANS can or cannot do, based on what a handful think is in"everyone's" best interest. Tack your drive so you can't go to work? Bust windows out of your house? Physically assault you? Nope....I don't think ANY of those are acceptable measures.
To clarify....it's one thing for a union to pursue safer work practices...better wages/benefits/etc....it's another thing entirely for them to attempt to dictate what INDIVIDUAL AMERICANS can or cannot do, based on what a handful think is in"everyone's" best interest. Tack your drive so you can't go to work? Bust windows out of your house? Physically assault you? Nope....I don't think ANY of those are acceptable measures.
So what if management has come to the conclusion that, given current circumstances, the demanded raise (or whatever) is not feasible from an economic standpoint? The workers have the option to keep their jobs at the current wage...or go stand in the unemployment line. Every man's situation is different. A single man with no bills may go for striking. A married father of six, with bills running out his ears, may see it quite differently. But neither should be bullied/harassed into taking the union's side.
Am I saying that putting caltrops in someone's driveway was right? Absolutely not. That endangers the family, and that's inexcusable. When they go on strike, they aren't getting paid. Losing their home is a very likely possibility, their children will be going hungry, all for standing together and standing up for what they believe in. Taking their job because it's there has consequences, and violence isn't unheard of. Non violence doesn't have a very good success rate, and violence has been used against us wayyyyyyyyyy more than the other way around. Labor day commemorates the Pullman strike, where the friggin' army was used and killed 30 men. Unions have had tons of people die for what they have today, and that isn't easily forgotten among the rank and file. Sometimes they act out in inappropriate ways, and since that story is likely from the 80s, goes to show the further anger caused by Reagan not enforcing collective bargaining laws.
A common misconception is that we hate non union workers. While some do feel that way, the majority feel bad for them, because their employer is charging about the same, and pocketing the difference as profit. We also feel bad for the customer, because the skill level between union and non union is usually huge. In the pipefitting trade, we go to school for 5 years to learn the trade, and that's just the beginning. Apprenticeships have been used for millennia, and unions carry on that tradition here. It's still the best way to train someone.
Because of that training, I fully trust most people I work with. Although I've done climbing at work, it's not a standard part of our trade, and proper safety procedures would require me to check and sign off on anything life support or similar. However, the environment is far more dangerous, and working around unskilled people in that kind of environment can get you killed.
A common misconception is that we hate non union workers. While some do feel that way, the majority feel bad for them, because their employer is charging about the same, and pocketing the difference as profit. We also feel bad for the customer, because the skill level between union and non union is usually huge. In the pipefitting trade, we go to school for 5 years to learn the trade, and that's just the beginning. Apprenticeships have been used for millennia, and unions carry on that tradition here. It's still the best way to train someone.
Because of that training, I fully trust most people I work with. Although I've done climbing at work, it's not a standard part of our trade, and proper safety procedures would require me to check and sign off on anything life support or similar. However, the environment is far more dangerous, and working around unskilled people in that kind of environment can get you killed.
I'm not sure I understand what you are asking... but I'll try to answer what I think you are asking. If management can't afford a pay raise or what not, all of that is discussed during negotiations for the contract. Contracts are good for so long, then they meet and assess changes in the cost of living, profits, etc. If they can't come to an agreement, a mediator is involved. This is law, and was the first thing to go during the Reagan years. This mediator prevents strikes by being a third party with a cooler head, and 99 percent of the time solves any issues. Failing that, the union votes whether or not to even authorize a strike, because doing so makes their lives living hell. Then ether the leaders can call a strike, only after another vote by representatives, or sometimes even another whole union vote. Strikes are not taken lightly at all, and there are legal and illegal strikes too. Yup, there are even laws about what you can and can't strike over, and other laws actually prevent certain occupations from striking at all, such as police and fire departments.
Then if everything has failed and a strike happens, as a union member you have given oaths to stand with your brothers. As people get closer and closer to the brink, other members often try to help out as much as they can. But you can lose everything standing up for what you believe. That's called integrity, and screwing your fellow brothers over by crossing a picket line is literally the worst thing you could do, because you are reducing their effectiveness and prolonging everyone's suffering.
At this point, management will usually try to bring in other workers, or force white collar workers to replace the strikers. Everyone understands that the white collar guys don't want to be there and are only protecting their own existing jobs, and so are usually given a pass. But if you are an outside worker, coming to take their job while they are on strike, you are taking your life in your own hands. Trying to undercut another person while they are standing up for what they believe in will likely result in bad shit. It doesn't take a genius to figure that out. Any action should take place at the workplace though, never the home. Even though chivalry is dead, this should be a gentleman's war.
I once did a tree for a guy who used to negotiate the teachers union contract for the school board. I'm from a union teacher family, and he knew me from that. After the job, he offered a drink, and we talked while sipping Jack Daniels. His son showed up, and introduced himself as a union breaking consultant. We had an interesting conversation, friendly, and then the subject of working against construction unions came up. He said that's the one thing he doesn't do, because the contractors that don't want them are cheap and shoddy, and they actually need the union more than the other way around. He then added "besides, they truly believe in what they stand for, and will kill you lol" I laughed, shook his hand, and said "don't ever forget that."
While partially true, I'm not going to kill him, and neither is anyone else. But if that possibility isn't there, people like him will walk all over us. The struggle for workers is real, and although it's cooled off over the years, it's still alive and well. It's not in the news, but it's there. And unfortunately, the workers are losing.While I cannot dispute what you say, I refuse to believe that a union's existence is, of itself, proof of its benevolence or integrity. There are licensed workers in every field known to man that are corner-cutters and cheats, out to serve themselves and no other.
That said, I remember back in my Asplundh days, there was talk of unionizing. Alabama Power had made it clear that they wouldn't stand for us going union. I personally didn't see any advantages of a union in our situation, as the only reason we had jobs was that APCo WAS union, and Asplundh, as NON-union could work cheaper.
Now I'm self-employed, and while I empathize with anyone in a bad work situation, I can't seem to grasp the idea of a union fixing the problem(s).
That said, I remember back in my Asplundh days, there was talk of unionizing. Alabama Power had made it clear that they wouldn't stand for us going union. I personally didn't see any advantages of a union in our situation, as the only reason we had jobs was that APCo WAS union, and Asplundh, as NON-union could work cheaper.
Now I'm self-employed, and while I empathize with anyone in a bad work situation, I can't seem to grasp the idea of a union fixing the problem(s).
SkwerI
Treehouser
Go ahead and research the Teamsters union and their beginnings with Jimmy Hoffa and the mob. They were founded on a base of corruption and it permeates every brick in their foundation. There is no way the Teamsters union could ever be free of corruption because without corruption there is no union.
Agreed completely. Not all unions or even locals for that matter are the same, some have more and different problems than others. I'm very blessed to be in a wonderful one, in fact the leaders lowered their own pay because projected work is lower than what we had in the past. They aren't paid ridiculous sums of money either. In our local, shoddy work and corner cutting will get you ostracized and ridiculed, and if it's bad enough, fined. Our reputation is what we feed ourselves on, and we police our ranks accordingly. Not all are like that though.
While not perfect by any stretch of the imagination, they still serve very valuable purposes, and are still very relevant. There has been a huge propaganda war against us, ironically by the same people that shipped our country's manufacturing overseas to line their pockets faster. We ain't perfect, but my god, look at them.
While not perfect by any stretch of the imagination, they still serve very valuable purposes, and are still very relevant. There has been a huge propaganda war against us, ironically by the same people that shipped our country's manufacturing overseas to line their pockets faster. We ain't perfect, but my god, look at them.
You sir, need to turn off Fox news.
SkwerI
Treehouser
Which brings us back to why I voted for Trump and why he is Making America Great Again, lowering corporate taxes to encourage corporations to bring dollars and factories back to America. But I'm not going to discuss politics on this forum any more and you will have some convoluted excuse why I'm wrong anyway.
SkwerI
Treehouser
Well he already has. Stories in the news all the time, if you can look past all the bullshit reporters bashing on Trump on a daily basis. But if you haven't seen it by now then you're not going to see it no matter what. And I don't want your lips in my pants anyway.
SkwerI
Treehouser
Here's one from today, I just found 2 minutes ago. Just an example. And it's from Reuters so you can't claim it's an alt-right website.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...in-michigan-plant-add-2500-jobs-idUSKBN1F034F
100% attributable to Trump's tax policies and the threat of Trump pulling the US out of NAFTA.
Also from the same article-
Like I said earlier, if you haven't read about it yet then it's because you don't want to see it.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...in-michigan-plant-add-2500-jobs-idUSKBN1F034F
100% attributable to Trump's tax policies and the threat of Trump pulling the US out of NAFTA.
Also from the same article-
Like I said earlier, if you haven't read about it yet then it's because you don't want to see it.
That's awesome, and if he actually rolls back nafta and reinstates tariffs I'll definitely be eating crow. But according to the bureau of labor, manufacturing jobs is slowly continuing the trend from Obama...
https://data.bls.gov/timeseries/CES3000000001
https://data.bls.gov/timeseries/CES3000000001
This country will be reeling from the Kenyan's fiasco for years to come, I fear. I don't know that we will ever fully recover. This isn't a football game where you can bumble along through the first half, then recover and come back to win in the last quarter. We're talking about a nation, along with its future generations, who will pay the price for a fool being at the helm, without being given a choice. Only time will tell whether or not Trump will make America great again.
FireFighterZero
Captain Zero!
Hehehe. I did not know some people were still forced to work.
Figured you could still quit and go get a different job..........mind blown.
FireFighterZero
Captain Zero!
Okay. I did not watch all of it......what'cha wanna know?
Some of that looked pretty nasty......but some of it was out of context and poorly "narrated".
CurSedVoyce
California Hillbilly
That is how right to work is in AZ. Easier to find another job than get unemployment. I was able to join a plumbers union though. But the shop I worked for was non union. So it was more of a learn here thing, and maybe we can find you work later.
