What's a handshake worth ?

Here's where I'm at on the "man's word and handshake" thing. This is near and dear as I just had a deal blow up because I was going to back out.

Crappy thing is that it is a guy I fly with and know pretty well. We shook hands and made a deal. I was to pay when he came back in town. Whilst he was away I said, hey, I'll show up with $7k cash, for you to hold but I want a test ride. In return I got an overly defensive scathing remark saying "hell no and I have a line of buyers." Not a "I'm not comfortable with that...." or "what reservations do you have?"

So I just said, good, go sell it to someone else. To which I got scathing texts about not being a man of my word.

For people who live in a black and white world, I suppose so. To those of us who live in reality, a handshake seals the deal but that does not release the buyer or seller from remaining civil until the deal is consummated. If a seller is rude, overly defensive, and bullying before a deal is complete, they should expect that conduct to alter the trajectory of the sale regardless of handshaking.

My seller sure didn't see it that way.

In tree work, I generally had a feel for who will slip out from the calendar.

I sell things for a living. Reserving a calendar spot and not giving notice is different, but it is never ok for a seller to get mad at a buyer for not buying.

Buyers are liars, that's just life. It is your job as a seller to maintain that task tension until the deal is consummated.
 
If I don't know them and they're not full timers here (roughly half the market) I go for the small deposit check on the big job. At least I don't drive into a Stump left by someone else on job day.
 
That's a big part of the problem isn't it Chris, its rampant. Just this week I've had four dud quotes, not poor quality leads but either stood up, sent to the wrong suburb, or asked to quote work that now won't even proceed or isn't required.
 
treetx said:
Here's where I'm at on the "man's word and handshake" thing. This is near and dear as I just had a deal blow up because I was going to back out.

Crappy thing is that it is a guy I fly with and know pretty well. We shook hands and made a deal. I was to pay when he came back in town. Whilst he was away I said, hey, I'll show up with $7k cash, for you to hold but I want a test ride. In return I got an overly defensive scathing remark saying "hell no and I have a line of buyers." Not a "I'm not comfortable with that...." or "what reservations do you have?"

So I just said, good, go sell it to someone else. To which I got scathing texts about not being a man of my word.

For people who live in a black and white world, I suppose so. To those of us who live in reality, a handshake seals the deal but that does not release the buyer or seller from remaining civil until the deal is consummated. If a seller is rude, overly defensive, and bullying before a deal is complete, they should expect that conduct to alter the trajectory of the sale regardless of handshaking.

My seller sure didn't see it that way.

In tree work, I generally had a feel for who will slip out from the calendar.

I sell things for a living. Reserving a calendar spot and not giving notice is different, but it is never ok for a seller to get mad at a buyer for not buying.

Buyers are liars, that's just life. It is your job as a seller to maintain that task tension until the deal is consummated.
Click to expand...

Yep good post.

My wife works for a business selling houses to foreigners in France, buying a house in France must be very dangerous because an incredible amount of relatives seem to drop down dead a few days before pen gets put on paper, thus changing the buyers "priorities"


Just the way it is.
 
Tree09 said:
I completely agree that a signed contract is more professional, but i do most of my work from referrals. The majority of the people i personally work for are working people themselves, and around here they are leary of super formal contracts and stuff. I have been burned by realtors in the past, but they live in the super contract world and are always looking to get one over on somebody. Learned my lesson there. But fellow construction people i do work for are much more relaxed about stuff. And even though the area i work in has a fairly large population, most everyone knows each other, so few people are trying to one up someone else. It's a gamble for me if they pay, and its a gamble for them that if they don't i might drop 10 tons of logs in their driveway, so i guess I've been lucky. I also don't have tons of equipment and do hundreds of trees a year, which obviously changes things too. If i was at that level, contracts might be more appealing
Click to expand...

Excellent post! I've had two houses in my life where the closing date had to be extended because they spelled my name wrong on the "contract." On the last refinance, they made me initial on pages where I had already signed, to show that I had signed.

I can only remember one contract I've had for work to be done by me in the past 25 years. I'm fortunate to be in a position where I can pick/choose who to work for and what jobs to take. However, two summers ago I had three different "licensed/bonded/insured/certified" contracting companies at our house, with signed contracts. Their work was so crappy, I had to tell them to collect their tools and leave. And, pay them to go away. It's unfortunate that along with contracts comes a requirement for willingness to go to court, where you will surely lose time/money. I have very little faith in "contracts," but I am in favor of writing things down so both parties are clear as to what will be done. So I guess that is a contract.
 
Thanks man, i was sure i wasn't the only guy here that wasn't a fan of contracts lol. I understand contracts for different types of work too, where materials are bought and not easily returned, because if the homeowner goes back on it the contractor is on the hook for the materials, but trees are just labor cost. That's part of the draw for me at least, because pricing materials before a bid is a major pain lol. Bunch of leg work for nothing sometimes. I've always told the client to hold all of the money until they are satisfied with my work, and hearing that really eases the pressure and stress for them. Most of the larger tree companies here are all about contracts, and i almost posted some of their isa certified work, it's absolutely abysmal (i was slightly hurt by the joe comment lol). Topping large diameter mature trees, lionstailing, etc. Most of my removals are because of previously pruned trees done by people who on paper know better. I walk the client through why their tree is dying or dead, and honestly tell them what their options are. By treating them honestly and explaining some basics about tree growth and proper pruning, most actually become pissed that they have been wronged in the past, and thank me for explaining stuff to them. I spend way too much time there, but because of that, i usually get the work irregardless of price and/or a referral. If they go with someone else, i can't get mad, but happy they found a better deal (if that's the case). I forget which book i read it from but it basically said this:

"Think not of how you could better profit from people, but rather think of how you could serve more people and do it better. If you do those two things, profit will certainly follow as will more work than you can handle."

I've tried to live by that, and i find that it's kinda a self fulfilling prophecy. Will it assure you get every job you bid? No, you never want every job you bid or you are bidding too low. But it will help you make decisions that lead to better service and happiness.
 
Chris E said:
Sounds like you may have dodged a bullet there. What was the item?
Click to expand...

A high performance glider. Like motorcycles, it is common to do the cash on crash deal. My reservation was that the seller had made modifications to "improve" the wing's performance.

To me, the handshake was binding but just like one "oh sh^t!" can erase a ton of "atta boys", a handshake can be erased if one party want to be rude.

My seller was likely rude because he feared me backing out which turned out to be a self fulfilling prophecy.

Mick - Lol on the relatives dying before signing.
 
Let's not confuse 'contract' with a written quote that both parties sign. Why try to make it seem more complicated than it is? Because it's not.

Its fine and dandy to run on a handshake with no paper trail. Just don't be surprised when you get burned or screwed around by someone. Because it will happen if you're churning through enough customers.
 
I think i also have to add that verbal contracts are legal and enforceable here, and with the business card pic thing proves that an agreement was made. I've had people i know go to court and win over it. So technically, in the state of Illinois, I'm still getting a contract, even though I'm not asking them to sign something. I'm very small time here, so it's a non issue for me. My friend isn't as small time, and he only does contracts on large land clearing deals, tub grinding, and wood recycling.
 
This is a good thread. I've enjoyed reading the different viewpoints. Sorry, though, I haven't contributed much.

I once watched a short program about, "Business Ethics". The point about it parallels those points being expressed in this thread.

Same bullshit different day, I guess.
 
More people need to know the story of General Nogi during the meiji era in Japan...

When the samurai's were losing their positions of respect and prominence as more foreign influence came to acceptance in the country, the general and some other warriors started a rebellion to try to maintain the old ways of thinking still under the strong position of the emperor. The rebellion was futile, and the general and his associates failed in their ambition to restore what they believed was an essential code of conduct embodied with respect and obligation. Feeling disgraced and shamed, the highly decorated Nogi having previously served his country with the utmost distinction, was forced to remain dutiful in his position of prominence in the country. He normally would have taken his own life as an apology, as was customary in those days, but the emperor forbid it.

The day of the funeral of the meiji emperor many years later, General Nogi and his wife went into an upstairs room in their residence, closed the door, and both committed ritual suicide. The general assisted his wife by stabbing her in the throat. He then disemboweled himself wth his sword to reclaim his position of honor, always intending to do so after losing the emperor's banner in a skirmish during that fateful rebellion so many years previous. Always having held the importance, General Nogi waited 35 years to once again have the opportunity to bring honor upon himself in the only way that he believed that he could.

Life shouldn't be without honor, be it in a person's word or in their handshake.
 
I've always been awed by the Japanese honor code, and the lengths that they go to defend it. When i was growing up my dad always said to take care of your family name, its the only one you get, but the samurai would rather die than live in shame. We could use some of that in today's modern age. Thanks for sharing Jay, and btw, how did your surgery go? I see you are posting again, so I'm assuming all is well?
 
Personally I think the Japanese have taken it a bit far... somewhere in the middle would be fine for me.

Whats a handshake worth you ask, often sweet FA it seems but depends whos hand it is doin the shakin at the end of the day.
 
I'm out of the game now but, I got burned a few times like this also. Started having them sign at the bottom of the proposal which had a little contract worded in it. If I knew the people I didn't bother with that. Figured at least I would have something if it came down to small claims court. Also sometimes when it was a long time between bid and job I couldn't remember what was included in the proposal. To go further with this a man's signature is only as good as his handshake but at least you can show someone else the signature.
 
On the flip side of the issue ... Merciless rook low bid on a big Pine years ago (for a friend but still a paying customer) took me a long time and eleven climbs to get the thing down Safely. Remember sitting in the bathtub re-reading Fundamentals after work ... Finally finished and my friend says "the bid was killing you on this job wasn't it?" Told him the truth , gave me extra and shook my hand , said "Dave you are a man of your word". (Job was set on a handshake.)
 
^^^^ now that's a great story. People like that are the real deal.
 
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