What's a handshake worth ?
- Thread starter RegC
- Start date
- Replies 84
- Views 9K
gf beranek
Old Schooler
There's some sure irony that goes with it.
I was always under the impression that if you couldn't do business by someone's word, they weren't worth friggin' with in the first place. I've been burned in the past by similar people, so i was taught to give the estimate on the back of a business card, then take a pic of it with your phone. Then that way it's in writing for both of you to see, but you don't have to have the formal signed estimate, which pisses off men of their word. If declarations of written estimates, time guarantees, etc start coming up, I'm walking, because they will be impossible to please. Scarcity is attractive, so when you refuse work at the drop of a hat, they want you to do it more. So with that in mind, i suggest they get other bids to make sure they are getting the best deal. Good clients love the honesty, and will refer you to others even if you don't get that particular job.
Burnham
Woods walker
I fear had I ever tried to make it as a private business in the arb world, I'd have hurt some azzhole customer and be in jail yet. Not my cup of tea. My route isn't what many of you would chose either...it's a mystery what is right for any of us.
bstewert
TreeHouser
I agree with this. Would write it off as a bid I didn't get, and move on. But would not do future work/estimates for them.
CurSedVoyce
California Hillbilly
Exactly. Never again. I has a list of those 
So do some of my local tree brothers
So do some of my local tree brothers
SeanKroll
Treehouser
Some people suck.
Some people are dependable.
Jobber (Canadian) streamlines the contacting process, gets signatures on your smartphone, sealing the contract. You can take a deposit. Credit card processing if, and, as you want it.
I generally don't take a deposit. Maybe if contracting a crane. I don't think that there is anything wrong with it. LegalIy, i have to have a Contractor's Bond, covering among other things, stealing a deposit.
Some people are dependable.
Jobber (Canadian) streamlines the contacting process, gets signatures on your smartphone, sealing the contract. You can take a deposit. Credit card processing if, and, as you want it.
I generally don't take a deposit. Maybe if contracting a crane. I don't think that there is anything wrong with it. LegalIy, i have to have a Contractor's Bond, covering among other things, stealing a deposit.
Chris E
I'm Not Slash
I also think some clients regard contractors in general as an adversary, they probably tell themselves its ok to be a scumbag because we charge too high or are just out there to rip them off.
I wouldn't mind some feedback on this one that popped up yesterday, its got me a bit confused:
Last year did a removal, long story short cracked a $5.00 concrete paver, I offered ( Sean's Recommendation) to withhold $200 of the bill until fixed by either myself or their own landscaper. I followed up a couple times customer fobbed me off. I left it alone figuring it was a waste of time.
This guy now wants a quote on what sounds like a 1-2 day dead wooding job. I wanted to raise the matter of the paver when I go around there but figure that could jeopardize the quote. Maybe I say nothing and just add a bit to the price but I really don't know if I should even be trusting him at all?
I wouldn't mind some feedback on this one that popped up yesterday, its got me a bit confused:
Last year did a removal, long story short cracked a $5.00 concrete paver, I offered ( Sean's Recommendation) to withhold $200 of the bill until fixed by either myself or their own landscaper. I followed up a couple times customer fobbed me off. I left it alone figuring it was a waste of time.
This guy now wants a quote on what sounds like a 1-2 day dead wooding job. I wanted to raise the matter of the paver when I go around there but figure that could jeopardize the quote. Maybe I say nothing and just add a bit to the price but I really don't know if I should even be trusting him at all?
SeanKroll
Treehouser
Taking time to go shopping, buy the $5 paver, and go fix it ends up being a $100 expense. A landscaper is going to be $100-200 for a service call.
If you want the work, be sure your have a solid, spec'ed contract. Is it in a neighborhood you target (advertising value)?
Deadwooding is profitable work, low input. Don't mention it. Add a $100 if it takes the sting out.
You can always say no at the time of the estimate, as can they. You're not obligated if its awkward.
The job we started today if for a customer who I damaged her downspout a couple years ago (grapple tapped it). $30 in material. $100 fix, out the door, maybe. I'm back doing a 1.5-2 day job for her. She is happy that I took care of what I damaged. She kinda had sticker-shock at the bid, then I explained all the facets that made it complicated/ risky, and that I am mitigating them, and all will go fine. She said ok, and added stump grinding. Today she added another dead tree.
I did a lot clearing job for a guy who had been a previous customer. He was supposed to have a steep-ish road in that would become the driveway, in order for a small self-loader to access. He had a hard enough road in for a pick-up. he didn't want to spend the money on more gravel at that time. I ended up having to spend $350 for a mini-excavator rental and a day of forwarding logs. He called for more work. I didn't return the call. I could have made more money off of the project, but I was sorta pissed, still, and thought I shouldn't jeopardize everyone by taking on a job where I would be distracted and pissed.
If you want the work, be sure your have a solid, spec'ed contract. Is it in a neighborhood you target (advertising value)?
Deadwooding is profitable work, low input. Don't mention it. Add a $100 if it takes the sting out.
You can always say no at the time of the estimate, as can they. You're not obligated if its awkward.
The job we started today if for a customer who I damaged her downspout a couple years ago (grapple tapped it). $30 in material. $100 fix, out the door, maybe. I'm back doing a 1.5-2 day job for her. She is happy that I took care of what I damaged. She kinda had sticker-shock at the bid, then I explained all the facets that made it complicated/ risky, and that I am mitigating them, and all will go fine. She said ok, and added stump grinding. Today she added another dead tree.
I did a lot clearing job for a guy who had been a previous customer. He was supposed to have a steep-ish road in that would become the driveway, in order for a small self-loader to access. He had a hard enough road in for a pick-up. he didn't want to spend the money on more gravel at that time. I ended up having to spend $350 for a mini-excavator rental and a day of forwarding logs. He called for more work. I didn't return the call. I could have made more money off of the project, but I was sorta pissed, still, and thought I shouldn't jeopardize everyone by taking on a job where I would be distracted and pissed.
Chris E
I'm Not Slash
Yeah I won't even mention it. I've got no issue paying $200 to have it fixed, the way he handled it though I lost all respect. I'm about to draft up terms and conditions, its the only way to deal with the more common things that pop up.
SeanKroll
Treehouser
Seems like part of the $200 was a repair bill, and part of the $200 could have been money invested in a customer, with the ROI coming in on this job.
bstewert
TreeHouser
Chris, I think you handled that well. No response after two follow-ups would put him on my list.
squisher
THE CALM ONE!!!!
Just for your information. I'm a man of my word, but if I'm hiring someone for something that is about a thousand dollars or more. I want a written and signed estimate from you the contractor. Because we don't know each other from anyone and despite knowing myself and what my word means to me I have no idea what it means to you on a five to ten minute meeting/estimate.
Proper paper work isn't insulting to a customer who's 'good to their word'. It's professional. Period. And protects both parties.
I'm not looking to get to know a contractor and determine his 'worth' so that I can do business on a handshake. Put it in writing. I'm sorry but a pro writes it all out clearly on a proper estimate/invoice hopefully with logo and all pertinent business info printed on it. A Joe scribbles the price on the back of a card. Whether you snap a photo of it or otherwise. It costs very very little to have proper estimate and invoice books. Also it is a requirement for accounting and taxes to have a proper paper trail. Again having been audited, clear and concise bookkeeping is your friend. A shoebox full of receipts and non-sequential invoices will earn you a smack down from most auditors.
All depends what level you want your business to be at. But running a tree business is more than just cutting on trees.
What I'm getting at is if you're going to be a pro treecutter, be a pro businessman too.
squisher
THE CALM ONE!!!!
I'll add this from my experience as a treeco owner.
When people offer you cash/no receipt. 99%arent doing this for your benefit. They are doing it for themselves, to avoid sales tax and to drive you to cut the best deal you can by not reporting income and not paying tax yourself. This is not helping a legitimate business whatsoever. And it's not helping the tree industry IMO.
It's all fun and games to stuff that cash in your pocket and let your business absorb the expense and carry on. But ask yourself when a government auditor is sitting in your home going through every single bit of your financial life is it going to be worth it then? Because the reality is it's illegal, and then if you lie about it to an auditor it's really illegal.
Just some food for thought.
When people offer you cash/no receipt. 99%arent doing this for your benefit. They are doing it for themselves, to avoid sales tax and to drive you to cut the best deal you can by not reporting income and not paying tax yourself. This is not helping a legitimate business whatsoever. And it's not helping the tree industry IMO.
It's all fun and games to stuff that cash in your pocket and let your business absorb the expense and carry on. But ask yourself when a government auditor is sitting in your home going through every single bit of your financial life is it going to be worth it then? Because the reality is it's illegal, and then if you lie about it to an auditor it's really illegal.
Just some food for thought.
Grendel
TreeHouser
That's a great bit of advice there Justin. Very well said.
squisher
THE CALM ONE!!!!
Thanks but it's just my take on it. Everyone's got their own opinion and way of it. I'm a participant though, so usually you end up hearing(reading) about mine. Lol. 
squisher
THE CALM ONE!!!!
I would bring it up in that I'd ask the customer if they were happy keeping the $200 off or if they had any desire to still have the paver fixed? I'd then adjust my pricing accordingly.
. Not mentioning it at all would be kind of like ignoring the elephant in the room IMO.
Chris E
I'm Not Slash
For me its easier just to pretend to be a forgetful tree dude - bringing it up can't end well in terms of business. Its not like he tried to take absolute maximum advantage of the situation, he sold off his integrity for $200, that's his business really.
My friend was telling me that he does certain things to convey that he's "not mucking around". He tells prospective clients that he prefers an answer on a bid within 7 days, the bid is then valid for 14 days, just to name a couple.
My friend was telling me that he does certain things to convey that he's "not mucking around". He tells prospective clients that he prefers an answer on a bid within 7 days, the bid is then valid for 14 days, just to name a couple.
Having moved to a country where I now have to file income tax returns (as opposed to just payroll tax)...I don't quite understand the whole 'cash economy' vs declared income. I give you a price, I do the work, even if you don't want an invoice or receipt, I write one up for myself or put 'cash' on my income sheet.
I don't have to add GST being below the threshold, so it's of no consequence to me whether the client gives me cash or a cheque...it gets declared either way. Them not having to pay GST gives them an automatic discount anyway.
I often get asked, 'can I pay you in cash?', like its a secret code for 'I want a discount' or 'you won't have to declare it'...my price is my price, I don't quite understand the subtle undercurrents of the 'cash economy'.
I don't have to add GST being below the threshold, so it's of no consequence to me whether the client gives me cash or a cheque...it gets declared either way. Them not having to pay GST gives them an automatic discount anyway.
I often get asked, 'can I pay you in cash?', like its a secret code for 'I want a discount' or 'you won't have to declare it'...my price is my price, I don't quite understand the subtle undercurrents of the 'cash economy'.
Burnham
Woods walker
People like you who follow the rules wouldn't, I suppose 
.
Fi, in the simplest terms...cash, if you don't declare it as income, like you do, is an untraceable resource. Spend it where you wish, nobody in the tax office is the wiser where it came from.
.Fi, in the simplest terms...cash, if you don't declare it as income, like you do, is an untraceable resource. Spend it where you wish, nobody in the tax office is the wiser where it came from.
Bodean
Cali dreamer
Good thread.
I believe a handshake is very important.
Maybe I've gotten 10 signatures in the last 12 years of contracting and they were all voluntary...
I've been dumped before too, just a few times... maybe 5.
I just cal it, "True Colours"!
Funk those lames.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk
I believe a handshake is very important.
Maybe I've gotten 10 signatures in the last 12 years of contracting and they were all voluntary...
I've been dumped before too, just a few times... maybe 5.
I just cal it, "True Colours"!
Funk those lames.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk
SeanKroll
Treehouser
I got burned for $800 this year. Nutty lady. Bid price. Said I might want a crane for about $800. Roped it out and moved whole tree where requested with my own machine. She added work. Then said she won't pay the 800 that woulda been for the crane.
No signature, no recourse.
No signature, no recourse.
MasterBlaster
Administrator Emeritus
People like you who follow the rules wouldn't, I suppose
Fi, in the simplest terms...cash, if you don't declare it as income, like you do, is an untraceable resource. Spend it where you wish, nobody in the tax office is the wiser where it came from.
God bless America!
I completely agree that a signed contract is more professional, but i do most of my work from referrals. The majority of the people i personally work for are working people themselves, and around here they are leary of super formal contracts and stuff. I have been burned by realtors in the past, but they live in the super contract world and are always looking to get one over on somebody. Learned my lesson there. But fellow construction people i do work for are much more relaxed about stuff. And even though the area i work in has a fairly large population, most everyone knows each other, so few people are trying to one up someone else. It's a gamble for me if they pay, and its a gamble for them that if they don't i might drop 10 tons of logs in their driveway, so i guess I've been lucky. I also don't have tons of equipment and do hundreds of trees a year, which obviously changes things too. If i was at that level, contracts might be more appealing
