CurSedVoyce
California Hillbilly
Love this gal.
Liv Taylor Dodge.
Looks like she had fun on this one...
Liv Taylor Dodge.
Looks like she had fun on this one...
Welders? Any welders on this site?
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Is there not a lot of robotic welding going on in shipbuilding?
lumberjack
Young man on the go
Made a jib for the new excavator using a plasma table and welder 😂
SeanKroll
Treehouser
Looks useful!
I bet that works pretty well!
I'm sure there is, likely track units so you have guys running them to make sure they're going good, and most of those are likely sub arc units. But there's a ton of hand welding too, just pretty much the nature of big things. There's a big enough tolerance where robots don't do as well, and each ship is unique because it depends on how it all fits. Even with the robots you still need a ton of hand welders, and the guys running the robots have to know what they're doing.
Even before i got in the fitters, on my first welding job building rops for combines i was doing critical welds instead of the robots, and was trusted to do them when the robot was down, which was often. I worked what they called "the buck" and it was where all the different pieces came together, very physical job with lifting and setting 70 pounds or so, climbing, and kneeling on steel and over clamps and fixtures all day. We did the bottom critical welds and put all the trim pieces on too at a different table, so we were the bottleneck of the line, and were pretty much always buried in work and the production times were pretty harsh. I learned it well, and pretty soon i was the fastest around by a country mile, and so the entire crew had it good and weren't bothered at all because we were better than first shift. Production was 12 for 3 guys and i would knock out 6 a night by myself since they didn't have enough guys, so they wisely let us do our thing. They even had me wreck them out for ones that were too messed up to fix, or repair welds that were out of spec. On overtime i would babysit a robot but had problems staying awake after the intense first 8 hours (2nd and 3rd shift working 5 16s), so i asked to do hand welding so they had me do massive diesel tanks.
At cat i was the last of the super heavy dualshield hand welds, they were transitioning to a robot. It didn't do too hot, so i ended up in salvage arc gouging the bad welds out and doing them manually. I also would have to get taps out that had broken off in parts, and then would weld them back up, drill, and tap them.
I've ran robots a bunch in the fitters too, and there's guys traveling all over the country making bank doing just that. I used one a few weeks ago welding tube, and have programmed ones with wire feed as well doing tube and pipe, some for food grade and some in chemical plants. They're really good and can make beautiful welds very quickly, but everything has to be absolutely perfect, which doesn't always happen, and you need a bang up welder to run them. So there will always be a need for good manual welders, so we often joke at work that we'll be the last morons working when everyone else is relaxing at home and doing cool stuff because no one else needs to work anymore, but they can't build robots to do our jobs yet
I'm sure there is, likely track units so you have guys running them to make sure they're going good, and most of those are likely sub arc units. But there's a ton of hand welding too, just pretty much the nature of big things. There's a big enough tolerance where robots don't do as well, and each ship is unique because it depends on how it all fits. Even with the robots you still need a ton of hand welders, and the guys running the robots have to know what they're doing.
Even before i got in the fitters, on my first welding job building rops for combines i was doing critical welds instead of the robots, and was trusted to do them when the robot was down, which was often. I worked what they called "the buck" and it was where all the different pieces came together, very physical job with lifting and setting 70 pounds or so, climbing, and kneeling on steel and over clamps and fixtures all day. We did the bottom critical welds and put all the trim pieces on too at a different table, so we were the bottleneck of the line, and were pretty much always buried in work and the production times were pretty harsh. I learned it well, and pretty soon i was the fastest around by a country mile, and so the entire crew had it good and weren't bothered at all because we were better than first shift. Production was 12 for 3 guys and i would knock out 6 a night by myself since they didn't have enough guys, so they wisely let us do our thing. They even had me wreck them out for ones that were too messed up to fix, or repair welds that were out of spec. On overtime i would babysit a robot but had problems staying awake after the intense first 8 hours (2nd and 3rd shift working 5 16s), so i asked to do hand welding so they had me do massive diesel tanks.
At cat i was the last of the super heavy dualshield hand welds, they were transitioning to a robot. It didn't do too hot, so i ended up in salvage arc gouging the bad welds out and doing them manually. I also would have to get taps out that had broken off in parts, and then would weld them back up, drill, and tap them.
I've ran robots a bunch in the fitters too, and there's guys traveling all over the country making bank doing just that. I used one a few weeks ago welding tube, and have programmed ones with wire feed as well doing tube and pipe, some for food grade and some in chemical plants. They're really good and can make beautiful welds very quickly, but everything has to be absolutely perfect, which doesn't always happen, and you need a bang up welder to run them. So there will always be a need for good manual welders, so we often joke at work that we'll be the last morons working when everyone else is relaxing at home and doing cool stuff because no one else needs to work anymore, but they can't build robots to do our jobs yet
Nutball
TreeHouser
Not using robots could in theory help society, because if people have to learn to do things well and right the first time, while having attention to detail, then they might use that behavior in daily life. But, then some people just never learn to do anything well.I bet that works pretty well!
I'm sure there is, likely track units so you have guys running them to make sure they're going good, and most of those are likely sub arc units. But there's a ton of hand welding too, just pretty much the nature of big things. There's a big enough tolerance where robots don't do as well, and each ship is unique because it depends on how it all fits. Even with the robots you still need a ton of hand welders, and the guys running the robots have to know what they're doing.
Even before i got in the fitters, on my first welding job building rops for combines i was doing critical welds instead of the robots, and was trusted to do them when the robot was down, which was often. I worked what they called "the buck" and it was where all the different pieces came together, very physical job with lifting and setting 70 pounds or so, climbing, and kneeling on steel and over clamps and fixtures all day. We did the bottom critical welds and put all the trim pieces on too at a different table, so we were the bottleneck of the line, and were pretty much always buried in work and the production times were pretty harsh. I learned it well, and pretty soon i was the fastest around by a country mile, and so the entire crew had it good and weren't bothered at all because we were better than first shift. Production was 12 for 3 guys and i would knock out 6 a night by myself since they didn't have enough guys, so they wisely let us do our thing. They even had me wreck them out for ones that were too messed up to fix, or repair welds that were out of spec. On overtime i would babysit a robot but had problems staying awake after the intense first 8 hours (2nd and 3rd shift working 5 16s), so i asked to do hand welding so they had me do massive diesel tanks.
At cat i was the last of the super heavy dualshield hand welds, they were transitioning to a robot. It didn't do too hot, so i ended up in salvage arc gouging the bad welds out and doing them manually. I also would have to get taps out that had broken off in parts, and then would weld them back up, drill, and tap them.
I've ran robots a bunch in the fitters too, and there's guys traveling all over the country making bank doing just that. I used one a few weeks ago welding tube, and have programmed ones with wire feed as well doing tube and pipe, some for food grade and some in chemical plants. They're really good and can make beautiful welds very quickly, but everything has to be absolutely perfect, which doesn't always happen, and you need a bang up welder to run them. So there will always be a need for good manual welders, so we often joke at work that we'll be the last morons working when everyone else is relaxing at home and doing cool stuff because no one else needs to work anymore, but they can't build robots to do our jobs yet
Robots are like any labor saving device, by that logic we would still be cutting trees with axes and handsaws. In time humans will likely not be needed at all for labor, especially once computers surpass human intelligence. But not all jobs are created equal, and to program one to replace skilled tradesmen is likely to be one of the last jobs to be automated, simply because engineers don't understand all the intricacies of the tasks themselves. In a similar vein they've tried for years to turn construction into a factory production job, and pretty much every attempt has been a dismal failure. Ironically computers do really well at drawing stuff and doing calculations, so the white collar jobs like engineers, accountants, hr people, and lawyers are likely first on the chopping block.
CurSedVoyce
California Hillbilly
Nutball
TreeHouser
I disagree, as far as what I meant in my earlier post. There's still a lot of skill involved with chainsaws and ropes. We aren't cutting trees with robots. That's like comparing electric welders with some sort of brazing or forge welding. We're talking about robots vs people actively running the tools. I'm not so much talking about maximizing labor to better society, but to hold people to a high standard of doing things.
Computers are great tools that do clearly and without error or fatigue what we do by experience and intuition, but I'm not sure that they will ever surpass human intelligence, depending on how you define intelligence. I've heard something along the lines of how something created can't be better than the creator. I think this holds true in most cases. You can simulate the abilities of the human mind to a great extent, but the real difficulty would be in getting AI to truly understand things rather than making a bunch of cold dry calculations. There's even some people who go through the motions without understanding what they are doing.
I'll stop here, before I get really philosophical.
chris_girard
Treehouser
Just getting back into welding myself these days.
Looking to get a Miller mig/tig combo.
Looking to get a Miller mig/tig combo.
I guess I'm not following, how she had to fix others work? Yeah if she's gotta fix stuff I'm sure they've been held accountable, and some of that she's showing is par for the course anyways. I worked salvage where i did exactly that, fixing others mistakes, it's production work so it's expected. Shipbuilding doesn't pay that great, especially structural, so they kinda get what they get, and welders are always bitching about how terrible the fit is, but yes some of those were pretty bad. Ships are so big that bad fits are kinda expected, when i was doing heavy work in a factory they were bad too, we had to fill in over an inch gap with .052 wire. I'll never forget i had turned down and was stitching it together like they taught in school and the old timer training me said "wtf are you doing?" He had me turn back up and go back and forth spattering weld in the gap til it closed up enough to start whipping it in. Took a fraction of the time and you didn't have to turn down, and even to this day I'll do similar to fill a large gap depending on what it is.
If you notice how cozy she is in some of those spots just imagine a much bigger guy trying to fit in there too, what's easy for some is hell for others, so i have a suspicion they have other guys hump her wire and stuff and make sure she keeps her hood down. I did that role for a lot of my career, and still do it now, fitting in to terrible spots and welding stuff. As an apprentice i had certain tasks that i should be doing, but once i was welding all the time they flat out said "we have guys for that, we need you with your hood down." They would also just tack stuff and go, and then i would come in on the weld out crew to weld everything up, and since they often aren't that good of welders they didn't always give you good fits, but that was what you were there for. I got broke in doing tank repairs as a pup, where you would go in and repair reactors and stuff, welding stuff in a mirror with your hands shoved between pipes, etc. We did a stainless tank that was so tight the foreman couldn't fit so even though I'm claustrophobic i volunteered, and had to bend at the waist to collapse my hip bones enough to be shoved in the rest of the way. They then flipped the tank with a bridge crane with me in it until the new nozzle we added was on the bottom, then tossed the mig gun through another flange and wired a box fan on the bigger one i fit through.
If you notice how cozy she is in some of those spots just imagine a much bigger guy trying to fit in there too, what's easy for some is hell for others, so i have a suspicion they have other guys hump her wire and stuff and make sure she keeps her hood down. I did that role for a lot of my career, and still do it now, fitting in to terrible spots and welding stuff. As an apprentice i had certain tasks that i should be doing, but once i was welding all the time they flat out said "we have guys for that, we need you with your hood down." They would also just tack stuff and go, and then i would come in on the weld out crew to weld everything up, and since they often aren't that good of welders they didn't always give you good fits, but that was what you were there for. I got broke in doing tank repairs as a pup, where you would go in and repair reactors and stuff, welding stuff in a mirror with your hands shoved between pipes, etc. We did a stainless tank that was so tight the foreman couldn't fit so even though I'm claustrophobic i volunteered, and had to bend at the waist to collapse my hip bones enough to be shoved in the rest of the way. They then flipped the tank with a bridge crane with me in it until the new nozzle we added was on the bottom, then tossed the mig gun through another flange and wired a box fan on the bigger one i fit through.
Dave Shepard
Square peg, round world.
I couldn't do the confined space stuff. If I could, I'd still be running a wood boiler.
That's the thing man, that's not special that's just the job, and tree work gives me a chance to do my own thing that's different from my fitter job so I'm not as susceptible during downswings in the sector and gives me more control and autonomy with my income and work requirements. My training in rigging has obviously helped me with trees, and honestly i view tree work as a different branch of rigging that has greatly helped as a fitter too. Welding is only a small fraction of the job, and the more rigging techniques and knowledge the better.
Dave Shepard
Square peg, round world.
I've decided to swallow my pride, and am in search of a cheap mig welder. If I had the money, I'd buy a 250 amp machine in my favorite shade of red, but that is too much money, and too much machine for my current needs. I have a Lincoln Idealarc 250 and a Miller 330 A/BP, so I'm good for stick and TIG.
Uses and features I'm interested in:
- Autobody (because I'm an idiot)
- Exhaust (see above)
- Minor fab projects of a non-structural nature
- Light repairs
- 115v/230v preferred, but not essential. 115v would let me use a small generator without havng to hook up a pto unit to a tractor at the sawmill
- Mild steel only
- Mig only, no flux core
I don't think I need any fancy stitching or spot welding features or digital displays. The Eastwood 180 is one that I was looking at earlier that seemed like a good fit. I'm not opposed to something from HF if it comes well recommended. I'm not going to call out tree09 or Blacksmith or anything, but remember this is for sheetmetal, not a side gig welding gas lines or nuclear reactors.
Uses and features I'm interested in:
- Autobody (because I'm an idiot)
- Exhaust (see above)
- Minor fab projects of a non-structural nature
- Light repairs
- 115v/230v preferred, but not essential. 115v would let me use a small generator without havng to hook up a pto unit to a tractor at the sawmill
- Mild steel only
- Mig only, no flux core
I don't think I need any fancy stitching or spot welding features or digital displays. The Eastwood 180 is one that I was looking at earlier that seemed like a good fit. I'm not opposed to something from HF if it comes well recommended. I'm not going to call out tree09 or Blacksmith or anything, but remember this is for sheetmetal, not a side gig welding gas lines or nuclear reactors.
The cheapest route is to buy a used 3 phase machine on Craigslist or marketplace or something (they go cheap because no one thinks they can run them). You then need a way to get 3 phase so you can buy a vfd drive, or you can build a redneck rotary phase converter. You can get a 2 x big enough to mount a universal 3 phase motor (also cheap and plentiful) and lag it down, and get an old washing machine engine and lag it down so it's all lined up for a belt, and rig up an idler pulley on a lever so you can use it as a clutch. Wire up 2 of the 3 legs on the motor with your single phase, and all 3 legs to the welder. So before you flip the switch to the machine you turn on the washing machine motor and get the big 3 phase one spinning, then hit it and it'll turn being a motor, and if the pulley is heavy enough (you may need a flywheel of some sort) it will generate the 3rd leg. Used to be really common, and then you have 3 phase in your single phase shop.
So why would you bother with all of that? Firstly cost, the machines and stuff go for cheap, and you're getting a professional machine that'll do anything you want. Lots of really good transformer machines are being replaced because the inverters use so much less power and are far easier to move around and store, but they weld great and are far more durable. It'll have a much better arc, and will be able to be turned down more. They'll also lay metal down when you want, and will have enough punch to really melt into the base metal. The wire feeder will be a professional one as well, and so it'll have much better and consistent action, and will likely have trigger hold and other luxuries. A bunch of the machines are cv and cc, so you can stick and tig with them too. They even have high frequency ones, they had points just like a magneto, old school but very effective, and easy and cheap to repair.
If you would rather buy a new one, i would strongly suggest you get a 220 volt one, a bigger machine can turn down better for the thin stuff and the 120 ones just pop breakers. I would stick to using hardwire or dual shield, they perform the best and do the best. The dual shield is really nice out of position for structural stuff, and it loves running on the common 75/25 mix. The flux helps hold the puddle in place so you can carry far more metal than you would imagine, and the weld deposit is second to none. It'll go faster too. I ran an esab 220 volt machine and it did fine for the smaller stuff, they're very handy for what they are, I'm just particular because I've done a ton of it and know the difference, and because codes are the way they are for a reason and I'm building structural stuff at the house most of the time.
A couple good buddies of mine starting working with us, and they both had a cheap one they really liked, not sure if it was a stick machine or a multi and i can't remember the brand, I'll ask tomorrow. I personally prefer the legacy American brands, Lincoln especially but Miller is fine. Hobart is another, they're owned by Miller (Illinois tool works actually), so they're basically a Miller at that range. Esab makes good stuff, and I've been impressed by hypertherms stuff but I've never used a welder from them yet. Lincoln is the best tho, they run so much smoother it's comical.
So why would you bother with all of that? Firstly cost, the machines and stuff go for cheap, and you're getting a professional machine that'll do anything you want. Lots of really good transformer machines are being replaced because the inverters use so much less power and are far easier to move around and store, but they weld great and are far more durable. It'll have a much better arc, and will be able to be turned down more. They'll also lay metal down when you want, and will have enough punch to really melt into the base metal. The wire feeder will be a professional one as well, and so it'll have much better and consistent action, and will likely have trigger hold and other luxuries. A bunch of the machines are cv and cc, so you can stick and tig with them too. They even have high frequency ones, they had points just like a magneto, old school but very effective, and easy and cheap to repair.
If you would rather buy a new one, i would strongly suggest you get a 220 volt one, a bigger machine can turn down better for the thin stuff and the 120 ones just pop breakers. I would stick to using hardwire or dual shield, they perform the best and do the best. The dual shield is really nice out of position for structural stuff, and it loves running on the common 75/25 mix. The flux helps hold the puddle in place so you can carry far more metal than you would imagine, and the weld deposit is second to none. It'll go faster too. I ran an esab 220 volt machine and it did fine for the smaller stuff, they're very handy for what they are, I'm just particular because I've done a ton of it and know the difference, and because codes are the way they are for a reason and I'm building structural stuff at the house most of the time.
A couple good buddies of mine starting working with us, and they both had a cheap one they really liked, not sure if it was a stick machine or a multi and i can't remember the brand, I'll ask tomorrow. I personally prefer the legacy American brands, Lincoln especially but Miller is fine. Hobart is another, they're owned by Miller (Illinois tool works actually), so they're basically a Miller at that range. Esab makes good stuff, and I've been impressed by hypertherms stuff but I've never used a welder from them yet. Lincoln is the best tho, they run so much smoother it's comical.
Nutball
TreeHouser
If generating 3 phase, I'd drive it off a gas engine. There'd be too much in losses and too little of portability to use an electric motor to drive a generator, in my opinion. That would be 2 sources of power loss between the wall and welder instead of one between a gas engine and welder.
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