pantheraba
More biners!!!
Excellent videos! The thermal readouts are impressive. Thanks for finding that. Good question/wondering there, lxskllr....Kenny answered well for you.
Rope
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Marc-Antoine
TreeHouser
Nice record on the IR cam. Just a though, is the thermal rize generated more by the surface friction between the segments of rope, or more by the internal friction between the fibers inside the rope? (the temp reached should be greater on the rope's surface in the first case or in the core in the last case).
theTreeSpyder
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Wondered some of same, and think elastic dampening would also have heat byproduct/thermal footprint also.
I hope for better tools, more accurately sensing force position , but also type ( deeper than just thermal output).
Rope construction of where force volume is carried Kern/mantle/shared would make difference and hollow 12 etc. as well, that could be then scheduled to compare likes and contrasts to sift data to definition. Then all braids compared to 3strand.
Internal sensing quantifiers is what I think it would take.
.
Voltage imagery , alignments to each other and host reveals mechanical logistics to decode knots, then seen that way aids in tying. Carries thru to other knots and rigging examinations.
i find the default to expect weave as helpful and if not expect less performance, also.
.
A lot of times i am wondering about host pressures for grip, nip, frictions, heat etc., so for some stuff that host could be a sensor of various things.
I hope for better tools, more accurately sensing force position , but also type ( deeper than just thermal output).
Rope construction of where force volume is carried Kern/mantle/shared would make difference and hollow 12 etc. as well, that could be then scheduled to compare likes and contrasts to sift data to definition. Then all braids compared to 3strand.
Internal sensing quantifiers is what I think it would take.
.
Voltage imagery , alignments to each other and host reveals mechanical logistics to decode knots, then seen that way aids in tying. Carries thru to other knots and rigging examinations.
i find the default to expect weave as helpful and if not expect less performance, also.
.
A lot of times i am wondering about host pressures for grip, nip, frictions, heat etc., so for some stuff that host could be a sensor of various things.
theTreeSpyder
TreeHouser
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Simple, clean view. Always looking for beginning scouting level understandings.
A-Few-Good-Knots.pdf
Warning: The material contained in this masterblasterhome.com website may improve your tree work program! - Please use with caution!
A-Few-Good-Knots.pdf
Warning: The material contained in this masterblasterhome.com website may improve your tree work program! - Please use with caution!
theTreeSpyder
TreeHouser
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- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #230
theTreeSpyder
TreeHouser
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HFP / TALK / Slippery 8 :
Our simple Rope, is it's own wonder, to be able to form so easily at will, and then immediately make rigid to use to connect, control bind etc.
Then melt to new support architecture and use in a minute like some dream kit too, only needs other rigid framework to pull from.
Most everything i show have tested at our full work loads in mush more active times, most things stated are logic made in head while working as commanded rope.
This true beauty came along after that, as is just a little over 10yrs old as gains acceptance and gets shown.
So have played extensively in more normal usings, and this is always listed as for utility use to a conservative profile.
It may be some day shown as top rescue ready class tho..(this and the mechanics of the Bowline comparison are own views tho)
Roo's notableknotindex>>slippery8 page
wikipedia>>Slippery_eight_loop
netknots.com>>slippery-eight-loop
.
The adjustment on this is just too sweet, but then Achille's Heel of: doesn't take spreading as well as even regular Bowline, that doesn't take it well always..
>>But here can simply raise the 180arc between nipping loops and throw the Bitter end thru, or just bight as fix.
>>So, that as the force in eye changes 90degrees, can slip by the lock used, so offer a lock at a 90degree position to compensate like this:
Our simple Rope, is it's own wonder, to be able to form so easily at will, and then immediately make rigid to use to connect, control bind etc.
Then melt to new support architecture and use in a minute like some dream kit too, only needs other rigid framework to pull from.
Most everything i show have tested at our full work loads in mush more active times, most things stated are logic made in head while working as commanded rope.
This true beauty came along after that, as is just a little over 10yrs old as gains acceptance and gets shown.
So have played extensively in more normal usings, and this is always listed as for utility use to a conservative profile.
It may be some day shown as top rescue ready class tho..(this and the mechanics of the Bowline comparison are own views tho)
Roo's notableknotindex>>slippery8 page
wikipedia>>Slippery_eight_loop
netknots.com>>slippery-eight-loop
.
The adjustment on this is just too sweet, but then Achille's Heel of: doesn't take spreading as well as even regular Bowline, that doesn't take it well always..
>>But here can simply raise the 180arc between nipping loops and throw the Bitter end thru, or just bight as fix.
>>So, that as the force in eye changes 90degrees, can slip by the lock used, so offer a lock at a 90degree position to compensate like this:
Last edited:
Marc, to your aug6 post, its the surface because it just skidded through a tightly gripped part of the knot.
I think in high stress rope failures people rarely get to see skidding of the rope under load except on a test jig. Rapidity and high force raise the local temperature the most because the heat doesn't have the time to travel/dissipate to surrounding material. This may in fact be a similar principle of concentrated force, with motion, that makes sharp cutting edges work. This localized heating happens on occasion with ropes rubbing the tree during rigging. I think there was one failure where the rope ended up "pulleying" over the cut stub of the tree and failed where it skidded briefly on the stub end at much lower than rated strength. For pondering :") Strength drops off real quick as you heat nylon and polyester. Marls and half hitches are victims of this too IMO.
I think in high stress rope failures people rarely get to see skidding of the rope under load except on a test jig. Rapidity and high force raise the local temperature the most because the heat doesn't have the time to travel/dissipate to surrounding material. This may in fact be a similar principle of concentrated force, with motion, that makes sharp cutting edges work. This localized heating happens on occasion with ropes rubbing the tree during rigging. I think there was one failure where the rope ended up "pulleying" over the cut stub of the tree and failed where it skidded briefly on the stub end at much lower than rated strength. For pondering :") Strength drops off real quick as you heat nylon and polyester. Marls and half hitches are victims of this too IMO.
Mick!
TreeHouser
I have been meaning to mention a rope purchase that was a success.
This stuff that the local tool shop, costs buttons, is a real throwback and we love it.
1: It’s very light, so much easier than the modern stuff to pull up a tree.
2: It is ace for natural crotch and self lowering, the 4 ply giving good friction on the tree and in the hand. Plus low glazing.
3: Low stretch for pulling trees over etc:
4: Did I mention how cheap it is? €58 for 25metres.
5: 6.5 tonne breaking though it’s only really for low grade lowering etc. If its big the friction bollard and expensive stuff comes out.
I can’t believe we’ve abandoned this stuff in the business.
Would recommend.
This stuff that the local tool shop, costs buttons, is a real throwback and we love it.
1: It’s very light, so much easier than the modern stuff to pull up a tree.
2: It is ace for natural crotch and self lowering, the 4 ply giving good friction on the tree and in the hand. Plus low glazing.
3: Low stretch for pulling trees over etc:
4: Did I mention how cheap it is? €58 for 25metres.
5: 6.5 tonne breaking though it’s only really for low grade lowering etc. If its big the friction bollard and expensive stuff comes out.
I can’t believe we’ve abandoned this stuff in the business.
Would recommend.
Mick!
TreeHouser
3/4 i think.
pantheraba
More biners!!!
I have a couple of similar ropes. I love them.
It only hockles if you use it against the lay, which allows it to open. That's right hand lay rope (almost everything is), so if you only wrap it up clockwise, or put clockwise wraps with it, it won't hockle. The load will still twist, but it won't hockle. Clockwise wraps tighten the lay, so that's why. Ever notice that all capstan winches pretty much use clockwise wraps? That's why, so right hand lay rope (pretty much all rope) can be used.
I knew that, but I didn't know it. Ropes and cords have a natural inclination, and I've always followed that, but I couldn't explain it. Still can't. I know exactly what a 3strand rope looks like, but I'd have to hold to know which way it wants to go.
09, your clockwise wrapping of RH lay comment has been bouncing around my mind and I now have a rejoinder- though it has been many moons since I've used 3 strand, my recollection is that it would tend to badly hockle on the termination end/working end of the rope rather than on the friction-device end of the rope. And my sense is it was caused by the rope going thru the natural crotch. My 3 strand days were also my NC/no-pulley days. Are you saying that if I wrapped the rope correctly on the friction device and used a natural crotch, I would get no hockling?
Yeah that's kinda what I'm saying. Clockwise wraps tighten the lay of the rope, so rather then hockling it helps keep the rope parts in place. It's taught to us because it's the proper use of the tool, but also because wire rope is much less forgiving so you need to know this to rig with tuggers and stuff. If you reeve blocks incorrectly, or spool the drum the wrong way, wire rope will birdcage and literally tear itself apart. Both 3 strand and wire rope are made from smaller parts, twisted against the lay of the rope so that the right hand twist of the rope lay is balanced by the left hand twist of the individual strands. You must actively use the rope in a manner to tighten the twist of the lay, otherwise as the load comes on the rope and causes it to straighten (twist to unlay basically) the left hand twist of the strands can overpower the friction holding the rope together, and it will pop up and hockle. If you are natural crotching, making sure that the rope is routed the proper way will help it maintain itself, not always possible but you get the point. Also the harder the lay the better for it standing up to abuse, because they have twisted everything really hard to make it a hard lay, and that's why it stands up to work better.
I dig everything in your post, especially the importance of knowing how to deal with wire rope so it doesn't clusterfuck on ya.
But what do you mean re NC, making sure the rope is routed the proper way?? Over a crotch is over a crotch is over a crotch, no?
But what do you mean re NC, making sure the rope is routed the proper way?? Over a crotch is over a crotch is over a crotch, no?
Clockwise wraps or counter clockwise wraps, so yeah it matters. If they are counter clockwise, it will open the lay, and cause problems. You guys should never take tree work suggestions from me, but i find that if i want more than 1 or 2 wraps, it's usually faster to just go over a limb or do a half hitch over a stub, and then run wraps on a bollard at the base. You are still saving time by not setting a block, but it's easier and quicker to set up and break down.
Marc-Antoine
TreeHouser
If the rope run just through the crotch, it makes something like 180°, more or less a good bit. It's only an half turn and has yet to choose the path right or left to actually make CL or CCL, in the case we would put a full wrap.
How I understand the issue presented by Cory, I saw that before too.:
The high friction point on the crotch creates a drag witch holds back part of the twist. So, when the rope moves on, it becomes less twisted on the "down stream" side and over twisted on the upstream side. If it's an heavy load (or strong pull), the less twisted side is very likely to get in trouble when the load disappears.
Reason : if the lay becomes less twisted by the drag, the individual strands become over twisted, like spring loaded, and only the strong tension keeps them straight. When the tension drops, the spring loaded strands tends to discharge their constrain, but the problem is that the main lay of this part of the rope isn't allowed to recover it's natural twist (that would solve the issue) because both ends of this part are held tight by the load (or puller) and by the drag point. So the energy stored is released by buckling the strands and inverting the main lay at the weakest point(s).
How I understand the issue presented by Cory, I saw that before too.:
The high friction point on the crotch creates a drag witch holds back part of the twist. So, when the rope moves on, it becomes less twisted on the "down stream" side and over twisted on the upstream side. If it's an heavy load (or strong pull), the less twisted side is very likely to get in trouble when the load disappears.
Reason : if the lay becomes less twisted by the drag, the individual strands become over twisted, like spring loaded, and only the strong tension keeps them straight. When the tension drops, the spring loaded strands tends to discharge their constrain, but the problem is that the main lay of this part of the rope isn't allowed to recover it's natural twist (that would solve the issue) because both ends of this part are held tight by the load (or puller) and by the drag point. So the energy stored is released by buckling the strands and inverting the main lay at the weakest point(s).
theTreeSpyder
TreeHouser
- Joined
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- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #249
i've used 3strand New England Safety Blue/hyvee(don't see listed) a bunch long ago, wore like iron, cheap, easy eye splicing(and single marked strand in splicing is helpful). Have flattened around a drum tho, but was probably really pushing (i mean pulling)it.
.
Other considerations to 3strand over braids i think i see are:
>>the more textured lock together in knots of more fitted/self bedding parts drawn up as one more so than round vs. round of braids.
>>Unique grip characteristics to that of braid, by this texture, in mating to surfaces
>>part of which is, have theory that i see better ventilated frictions(?), than the more solid 'sock' of a braid(?!). Partially from riding a whole lot of 3 strand spit tails , usually for Blake's hitch onto then a solid braid to ride as lifeline/rope column. Can use matching diameters of tail and and lifeline if only single pull on tail/cord. But would need lesser diameter of stiffer material cord, for a tail/cord pulled from both ends i think tho.
.
GRIP usually the most elusive property of rope control
>>as takes opposing rope part on other side of host
>>preferably both rope parts arc180, not linear
so seeing it a a positive sign to see it manipulated here
.
As said easy to splice, and one of my main benchmark models is a lesson from late Brion Toss.
Starts out by saying is counterintuitive, many fuss to keep rope strands round thru a whole 3strand splice, with best intentions, even yell at others to do so..
Try to keep the solid/primary side same diameter and shape for strongest splice(less deformity) with also most friction force offered(organic round shape of strands).
Then make eye, dbl. bury 1st strand,
BUT, work to 'ribbon' as the rope reeves/laces thru the primary side
>>the flat ribbon giving less disruption/deformity to the primary side
>>while also presenting more frictional area than if left to be round vs. round on the pass thrus
>>while the arc surface of the primary made gauntlets of turns that the ribbons formed to
Then his 'butane backsplice' coming out the final weave, as a flared bell that couldn't get back thru the first pass very easily..
Spliced up many round and eye2eye slings for cheap, rough usage, usually from degraded, cut done, more primary use lines when new.
i always worked to keep my primary load side of anything as 'pristine', w/o deformity as possible from this lesson ;
of what would think is about the ultimate knot strength/ long splice(less deformity over longer taper).
And several other key lessons too that have guided me.
.
Am stuck in drawing hell on item meant for the previous post and removed at last minute as just not good enough(own worse enemy).
On how to easily use HFP Slippery 8 as 3x single pull tighten coming out of eye on the solid (not seam)leg,
>>then quickly set nip once drawn up tight.
Gonna have to set it aside for now i think/and clear head, but that is the idea.
.
Other considerations to 3strand over braids i think i see are:
>>the more textured lock together in knots of more fitted/self bedding parts drawn up as one more so than round vs. round of braids.
>>Unique grip characteristics to that of braid, by this texture, in mating to surfaces
>>part of which is, have theory that i see better ventilated frictions(?), than the more solid 'sock' of a braid(?!). Partially from riding a whole lot of 3 strand spit tails , usually for Blake's hitch onto then a solid braid to ride as lifeline/rope column. Can use matching diameters of tail and and lifeline if only single pull on tail/cord. But would need lesser diameter of stiffer material cord, for a tail/cord pulled from both ends i think tho.
.
GRIP usually the most elusive property of rope control
>>as takes opposing rope part on other side of host
>>preferably both rope parts arc180, not linear
so seeing it a a positive sign to see it manipulated here
.
As said easy to splice, and one of my main benchmark models is a lesson from late Brion Toss.
Starts out by saying is counterintuitive, many fuss to keep rope strands round thru a whole 3strand splice, with best intentions, even yell at others to do so..
Try to keep the solid/primary side same diameter and shape for strongest splice(less deformity) with also most friction force offered(organic round shape of strands).
Then make eye, dbl. bury 1st strand,
BUT, work to 'ribbon' as the rope reeves/laces thru the primary side
>>the flat ribbon giving less disruption/deformity to the primary side
>>while also presenting more frictional area than if left to be round vs. round on the pass thrus
>>while the arc surface of the primary made gauntlets of turns that the ribbons formed to
Then his 'butane backsplice' coming out the final weave, as a flared bell that couldn't get back thru the first pass very easily..
Spliced up many round and eye2eye slings for cheap, rough usage, usually from degraded, cut done, more primary use lines when new.
i always worked to keep my primary load side of anything as 'pristine', w/o deformity as possible from this lesson ;
of what would think is about the ultimate knot strength/ long splice(less deformity over longer taper).
And several other key lessons too that have guided me.
.
Am stuck in drawing hell on item meant for the previous post and removed at last minute as just not good enough(own worse enemy).
On how to easily use HFP Slippery 8 as 3x single pull tighten coming out of eye on the solid (not seam)leg,
>>then quickly set nip once drawn up tight.
Gonna have to set it aside for now i think/and clear head, but that is the idea.
If it's not hard enough lay, then yeah, running it over a rough surface can pick strands. This even happens in wire rope. My main bull line is 5/8 treemaster, and it's very hard lay because i bought it to do tree work including nc, and i run arborplex for the lighter stuff. Natural crotch rigging is hard on rope, 3 strand is tougher than most other rope constructions but it's still just rope. Picking strands and hockeling are caused by 2 different reasons, although on fiber rope they both result in a hockle.
The smoother the surface the better for the rope, no matter the construction. Some nc applications are easier than others on the rope, and everytime you use rigging it will wear on it. Rope is a tool that we use until it no longer meets our needs, and it will hopefully be retired before failure. Often that's a fantasy, and the wear can be predicted. If you had a medium to soft lay rope, then climbed on it which messes with the lay, then maybe coil it counter clockwise, then run it nc counter clockwise, same with a portawrap, maybe you stuff it in a bag rather than coiling it (which helps 3 strand to reset the twist for the lay) etc. Those things all contribute to loosening the lay, which can eventually to cause the rope to be damaged, in this case by hockling.
For me, 3 strand is simply a cheap, tough bull line that loves pulleys and bollards but will tolerate sensible nc rigging. As long as i use it clockwise on bollards, try to do clockwise for nc setups, coil it properly and remove all the twists when stowing it, it will have a long life and good service. It's not as nice as a double braid, doesn't knot as well and is far stiffer, but the ability to simply use a limb or the trunk to help lower makes it worth it. I find it quicker and easier to not have to set a block all the time, and I'll often toss it thru a redirect crotch, maybe even to make better line angles and pull crotches together.
The smoother the surface the better for the rope, no matter the construction. Some nc applications are easier than others on the rope, and everytime you use rigging it will wear on it. Rope is a tool that we use until it no longer meets our needs, and it will hopefully be retired before failure. Often that's a fantasy, and the wear can be predicted. If you had a medium to soft lay rope, then climbed on it which messes with the lay, then maybe coil it counter clockwise, then run it nc counter clockwise, same with a portawrap, maybe you stuff it in a bag rather than coiling it (which helps 3 strand to reset the twist for the lay) etc. Those things all contribute to loosening the lay, which can eventually to cause the rope to be damaged, in this case by hockling.
For me, 3 strand is simply a cheap, tough bull line that loves pulleys and bollards but will tolerate sensible nc rigging. As long as i use it clockwise on bollards, try to do clockwise for nc setups, coil it properly and remove all the twists when stowing it, it will have a long life and good service. It's not as nice as a double braid, doesn't knot as well and is far stiffer, but the ability to simply use a limb or the trunk to help lower makes it worth it. I find it quicker and easier to not have to set a block all the time, and I'll often toss it thru a redirect crotch, maybe even to make better line angles and pull crotches together.
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