"Reverse Stump Shot"

[Altissimus]

been Logging and had a few Push Trees with a Tractor , operator prefers the back cut below the hinge. One of the the choppers here no like this technique at all , I'm fine with it and see the utility. If backcut is conventional the stump shot keeps the tree from shooting backwards off the stump if the top hangs in other trees .... lower backcut keeps the butt from kicking off the stump in the direction of the push sending the tree over the Tractor. I see it works really good. Anyone use this ? Anyone opposed on principle ?

 

[stig]

Only way to go IMO.

 

[Kaveman]

No argument with it. I just don't push with anything, really, I pull. Also, my tractor is too small to be pushing over any real trees. If I were to use my tractor, I'd definitely do reverse stump shot, just because my tractor is too small to risk it lolz.

 

[cory]

Only way to go IMO.

This.

Gerry talks about it's validity in FGTW

 

[Altissimus]

Yes ... the Bible of this trade

 

[Marc-Antoine]

I don't have any big equipment to push with, so I pull. When my bull rope is under the COG of an hard back leaner, I use the low back cut. If my rope is high enough, I cut level or with a conventional stump shot, depending.

 

[gf beranek]

Low backcuts work for the specific purpose you need. Smart thinking.

I've seen trees pushed and pulled off their stumps before. And watched people scatter like quail, too.

Typically when trying to pull limblocked trees apart with the rigging set to low. Thinning redwood sucker clumps is a classic scenario.

Kind of reminding of pulling vines apart. But you dealing with trees.

 

[Burnham]

It does the trick, for the intended purpose. I learned it from Gerry's book a long time ago now . It has worked for me in extremis...pulling with a road grader .

 

[davidwyby]

Yes, for same and different reasons. I was always a stump shot guy chasing hinge holding time. Finally it ocurred to me that hinges are not bending, they are pulling...I *think* (need to test) that a lower back cut pulls more fiber and holds longer.

 

[Burnham]

I have to disagree with your conclusion, David. I base that opinion on my own observations, the USFS S-212 classwork, and on the words of Doug Dent.

Caveat: my trees in my climate .

 

[davidwyby]

I have to disagree with your conclusion, David. I base that opinion on my own observations, the USFS S-212 classwork, and on the words of Doug Dent.

Caveat: my trees in my climate .

I agree from the samples of pine and fir I have cut. Flexible. I have only low back cut one eucalyptus, and it hinged more than usual…but it was a different species than usual too, so more testing required.

 

[davidwyby]

I think that Doug fir has alternating hard and soft rings. Light and dark. The soft rings compress and allow the harder more flexible grains to bend and pull. Palms same to some extent. Foam with trimmer string in it. Euc and other hard brittle short grained trees have no soft grains…chair prone long grained trees seem to have flex but very poor adhesion between the fibers.

 

[davidwyby]

…I was recently pleasantly surprised with how much lean I could overcome with pondos in the mountains.

 

[Kaveman]

Ponderosa has some serious flexibility in moat cases, even my high desert wood bends well.

 

[gf beranek]

Being a redwood cutter on the coast I screed myself a couple of times in the Sierra cutting Pondorosa.

You got to open those babies up. They do behave well with narrow undercuts.

Though I never barber-chaired one, it sure come mighty close.

 

[Burnham]

If hinges did not bend, it seems counterintuitive that a vertical bore under the hinge (what Stig calls a German cut), or a swizzy, would work. Yet they do generally work...I think that's because hingewood does bend before breaking.

I also think most pulling fiber happens at that point of breaking, not before. No real evidence I can point to, though.

 

[stig]

I have to disagree with your conclusion, David. I base that opinion on my own observations, the USFS S-212 classwork, and on the words of Doug Dent.

Caveat: my trees in my climate .

I'll second that.

 

[gf beranek]

I've seen quite a number of old-growth redwoods simply "pop" quite loudly too, clean and free of the hinge and go their own way, not pulling any fibers of hingewood. I can only assume that results from age and brittleness of the wood.

On the other hand young redwoods hinge more dependably. Showing tension fiber and compression breakage for the full length of the hinge. Indicating a fairly balanced tree.

Whereas side leaners most fiber pull occurs on the tension side of the stump, and less on the pressure side.

My observations with redwoods.

 

[davidwyby]

Here you can see last year’s attempts to get eucs to hinge. I always used a gap face but it seems the hinge would just break off, top or bottom. The ones that held the most were thicker, but they were also tall back weighted trees that were winched. Too difficult to wedge. The others were spars. So my current theory is a lower back cut because that one I did seemed to hold and pull more. Also, gutting the hinge for easier wedging. Maybe triple hinging? It seems the more wood there is to compress in the front half of the hinge, and the more there is to pull apart in the rear half, the more hinge time I get.

Best I can tell, Euc hinge characteristics might be similar to madrone.



Another thought on hinging vs. pulling…a Humboldt in most conifers creates a hinge that bends until the face closes, and then transitions to pulling. The whole hinge seems to be fiber pull/tension.

In my video with gap faces, the hinge is 50/50 compression/tension front to rear.

@MatthewMMeckley do you have any thoughts on Euc after going to Maui?
@Marc-Antoine, I always like to hear your thoughts as well.

 

[SeanKroll]

I'd triple hinge them, plunging from both sides.