I see Covid has done (to a far greater extent), what nothing else has been able to do...cause unprecedented division among people. It’s “us” vs “them” now. I have never cared if folks wore masks. Never cared if they got vaccinated. My issue was always the forcing others to comply with their idea of what was best for whole.
Regarding Covid
- Thread starter cory
- Start date
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gf beranek
Old Schooler
I'm in Scott's camp.
kevin bingham
TreeHouser
- Joined
- Nov 10, 2010
- Messages
- 4,788
thats the anti covid camp? me too. I hate Covid and what it has done to the world.
gf beranek
Old Schooler
did something squeak?
FireFighterZero
Captain Zero!
Its a dynamic situation Scott.
You have to allow that most of what was gospel at first was wrong. And that the people who pushed it are still heros.
Because at least they tried.
You have to allow that most of what was gospel at first was wrong. And that the people who pushed it are still heros.
Because at least they tried.
Mick!
TreeHouser
It’s always been us versus them.
Guns, religion, immigrants, blacks, 9/11, take your pick.
It’s nearly always the same people who take one side or another.
Pretending there was a golden age of peaceful coexistence is ridiculous.
Guns, religion, immigrants, blacks, 9/11, take your pick.
It’s nearly always the same people who take one side or another.
Pretending there was a golden age of peaceful coexistence is ridiculous.
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Frankie
I Build and Run Ported Saws !
When they say “temporary” they mean forever. Just look at what happened with “give us 2 weeks”.
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murphy4trees
TreeHouser
god info here from an email list I AM on.
COVID-19 vaccine passports are not evidence-based and violate people’s freedom of choice
Re: Covid-19 vaccine passports: access, equity, and ethics Tasnime Osama, Mohammad S Razai, Azeem Majeed. 373:doi 10.1136/bmj.n861
Dear Editor
The conversation about COVID-19 vaccine passports has reached fever pitch, with many media outlets reporting that proof of vaccination may be required for entry into pubs, restaurants, entertainment venues, gyms, workplaces or to travel abroad.
This week the UK Prime Minister announced trials of a “Covid status certification" scheme to enable concerts and sporting matches to take place, as well as mass testing of all adults and children, twice a week, as a way to stamp out new outbreaks.(1)
European leaders have issued a statement calling for a Digital Green Certificate, “as a matter of urgency” to facilitate safe free movement inside the EU during the COVID-19 pandemic.(2)
In Israel, now that restrictions have eased due to its mass vaccination roll out, restaurants are re-opening and people can show their “Green Pass”, an app that lets you prove you’ve had the jab.(3)
France is trialling a vaccine passport for air travel for people travelling to the French Caribbean territories of Martinique and Guadeloupe, where they’ll be able to provide a COVID-19 vaccination certificate or negative test result.(4)
A New Zealand airline will also trial a digital vaccine passport this month on flights between Auckland and Sydney, with Australian airline Qantas, exploring comparable technology.(5)
All Nordic countries except Norway are working to launch digital vaccine passport apps to be used at ticket control terminals and passport security stations at airports.(6)
The hope is that vaccine passports will pave the way for economic recovery and restore people’s freedoms, but is it evidence-based and does it violate people’s right to choose?
The most obvious issue is that it is still unclear whether vaccination prevents transmission. Vaccinated people may still be able to unknowingly spread the virus.
That’s why, on 5 Feb, the World Health Organisation released a statement dissuading nations from using vaccine passports, stating that “there are still critical unknowns”(7) and recently, reiterated its opposition to them.(
In addition, demonstrating “proof of antibodies” on a vaccine passport is problematic, as people can be infected more than once, particularly considering that the virus mutates.(9)
Twice weekly testing of UK citizens using rapid 30 minute tests, has been criticised by experts as “beyond reckless.”(10) They say the tests are not accurate, and the evidence to support their use is very weak.(10)
Further, the PCR test used by many countries had 100% sensitivity and 97.8% specificity. This is a highly accurate test if used when infection is suspected. But it performs poorly when used as a screening test.
In Denmark, only 0.5% of those tested are positive for COVID-19. Thus, for every 1000 people who are tested, we will get these results:
Infected, Healthy
Test +
5, 22
Test -
0, 973
This means that 81% (22/27) of those who are told they are ‘infected’ are actually healthy. A requirement for school attendance is a negative test twice a week, and in order to work at the Danish Technical University you must be able to present a Covid negative certificate, less than 72 hours old, to armed guards in the building.
In Denmark, in the last week of March, 1.1 million PCR tests were carried out (population of 5.8 million). Consequently, an enormous number of healthy people will be declared ill; they will be isolated; and many contacts will be asked to be tested, too. This situation is likely to spiral into chaos.
Vaccine passports are not a novel idea. Travelling to certain regions requires you to prove that you have been vaccinated for yellow fever for example, but the requirements for COVID-19 vaccine passports will be more widespread, potentially giving rise to a two-tier society – those who can be vaccinated and those who cannot.
Some employers may make it a requirement to be vaccinated before hiring, or it could become a condition of continuing employment.(11) An Australian business for example, made receiving the flu vaccine a condition of employment(12) despite evidence showing that the effect of flu shots is poor; they increase the risk of getting infected with another flu strain; and it has never been shown that flu shots reduce transmission, admission to hospital, lung infections or death.(13)
Even though in Australia, COVID-19 vaccines are voluntary and free(14), refusal to be vaccinated, resulted in the dismissal of an Australian employee.(12) If more businesses adopt this position, it will impact people seeking employment, and it could entrench discrimination and health inequality.
There is enormous pressure by Governments and public health authorities to consent to these vaccines. Our biggest concern regarding vaccine passports is the potential violation of people’s freedom of choice. People are likely to be denied access to places or the opportunity to travel abroad unless they opt for the jab.
The proponents of vaccine passports say it is meant to incentivise people to be vaccinated, but it has created a bitter divide, with many arguing that it is treading a fine line between voluntary and mandatory vaccination.
The Biden administration recently announced that it would not endorse a national vaccine passport and that it was a matter for individual States.(15) The Governors of Florida(16) and Texas(17) have both moved to prohibit vaccine passports saying that they reduce individual freedom and will harm patient privacy.
Conversely, in the UK, political leaders continue to support the idea of vaccine passports,(1) and many UK citizens appear to agree. A recent survey of more than 8,300 people aged over 16 found that most were in favour of vaccine passports to travel abroad or to visit a relative living in a care home.(1
We wonder, however, whether this comes at a time when Britons have ‘lockdown fatigue’ and may be willing to consent to anything in order to restore ‘normality’. This is a slippery slope and there’s no telling where this could lead if law-abiding citizens are expected to show documentation in order to eat out with their families or enjoy an afternoon at the pub.
COVID-19 vaccine passports are not evidence-based and violate people’s freedom of choice
Re: Covid-19 vaccine passports: access, equity, and ethics Tasnime Osama, Mohammad S Razai, Azeem Majeed. 373:doi 10.1136/bmj.n861
Dear Editor
The conversation about COVID-19 vaccine passports has reached fever pitch, with many media outlets reporting that proof of vaccination may be required for entry into pubs, restaurants, entertainment venues, gyms, workplaces or to travel abroad.
This week the UK Prime Minister announced trials of a “Covid status certification" scheme to enable concerts and sporting matches to take place, as well as mass testing of all adults and children, twice a week, as a way to stamp out new outbreaks.(1)
European leaders have issued a statement calling for a Digital Green Certificate, “as a matter of urgency” to facilitate safe free movement inside the EU during the COVID-19 pandemic.(2)
In Israel, now that restrictions have eased due to its mass vaccination roll out, restaurants are re-opening and people can show their “Green Pass”, an app that lets you prove you’ve had the jab.(3)
France is trialling a vaccine passport for air travel for people travelling to the French Caribbean territories of Martinique and Guadeloupe, where they’ll be able to provide a COVID-19 vaccination certificate or negative test result.(4)
A New Zealand airline will also trial a digital vaccine passport this month on flights between Auckland and Sydney, with Australian airline Qantas, exploring comparable technology.(5)
All Nordic countries except Norway are working to launch digital vaccine passport apps to be used at ticket control terminals and passport security stations at airports.(6)
The hope is that vaccine passports will pave the way for economic recovery and restore people’s freedoms, but is it evidence-based and does it violate people’s right to choose?
The most obvious issue is that it is still unclear whether vaccination prevents transmission. Vaccinated people may still be able to unknowingly spread the virus.
That’s why, on 5 Feb, the World Health Organisation released a statement dissuading nations from using vaccine passports, stating that “there are still critical unknowns”(7) and recently, reiterated its opposition to them.(
In addition, demonstrating “proof of antibodies” on a vaccine passport is problematic, as people can be infected more than once, particularly considering that the virus mutates.(9)
Twice weekly testing of UK citizens using rapid 30 minute tests, has been criticised by experts as “beyond reckless.”(10) They say the tests are not accurate, and the evidence to support their use is very weak.(10)
Further, the PCR test used by many countries had 100% sensitivity and 97.8% specificity. This is a highly accurate test if used when infection is suspected. But it performs poorly when used as a screening test.
In Denmark, only 0.5% of those tested are positive for COVID-19. Thus, for every 1000 people who are tested, we will get these results:
Infected, Healthy
Test +
5, 22
Test -
0, 973
This means that 81% (22/27) of those who are told they are ‘infected’ are actually healthy. A requirement for school attendance is a negative test twice a week, and in order to work at the Danish Technical University you must be able to present a Covid negative certificate, less than 72 hours old, to armed guards in the building.
In Denmark, in the last week of March, 1.1 million PCR tests were carried out (population of 5.8 million). Consequently, an enormous number of healthy people will be declared ill; they will be isolated; and many contacts will be asked to be tested, too. This situation is likely to spiral into chaos.
Vaccine passports are not a novel idea. Travelling to certain regions requires you to prove that you have been vaccinated for yellow fever for example, but the requirements for COVID-19 vaccine passports will be more widespread, potentially giving rise to a two-tier society – those who can be vaccinated and those who cannot.
Some employers may make it a requirement to be vaccinated before hiring, or it could become a condition of continuing employment.(11) An Australian business for example, made receiving the flu vaccine a condition of employment(12) despite evidence showing that the effect of flu shots is poor; they increase the risk of getting infected with another flu strain; and it has never been shown that flu shots reduce transmission, admission to hospital, lung infections or death.(13)
Even though in Australia, COVID-19 vaccines are voluntary and free(14), refusal to be vaccinated, resulted in the dismissal of an Australian employee.(12) If more businesses adopt this position, it will impact people seeking employment, and it could entrench discrimination and health inequality.
There is enormous pressure by Governments and public health authorities to consent to these vaccines. Our biggest concern regarding vaccine passports is the potential violation of people’s freedom of choice. People are likely to be denied access to places or the opportunity to travel abroad unless they opt for the jab.
The proponents of vaccine passports say it is meant to incentivise people to be vaccinated, but it has created a bitter divide, with many arguing that it is treading a fine line between voluntary and mandatory vaccination.
The Biden administration recently announced that it would not endorse a national vaccine passport and that it was a matter for individual States.(15) The Governors of Florida(16) and Texas(17) have both moved to prohibit vaccine passports saying that they reduce individual freedom and will harm patient privacy.
Conversely, in the UK, political leaders continue to support the idea of vaccine passports,(1) and many UK citizens appear to agree. A recent survey of more than 8,300 people aged over 16 found that most were in favour of vaccine passports to travel abroad or to visit a relative living in a care home.(1
We wonder, however, whether this comes at a time when Britons have ‘lockdown fatigue’ and may be willing to consent to anything in order to restore ‘normality’. This is a slippery slope and there’s no telling where this could lead if law-abiding citizens are expected to show documentation in order to eat out with their families or enjoy an afternoon at the pub.
Actually, Covid has done far less damage than the helter-skelter antics of the folks who claim to be trying to curb it. Of the dozen or so folks I know who have had the KungFlu, one has died, and all the others have recovered fine. But people are less trusting than they’ve ever been. Men don’t shake hands anymore. (Might get the cooties...) One group lines up to get their poke, then join the movement to force everyone else to get it too, whether they want it or not.
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I love that about Covid.
Everybody not sticking their grubby hand out, expecting me to shake it.
Nobody trying to hug me, either.
Just like I love it that people finally can figure out to keep their distance in supermarkets.
I hope it stays that way for ever.
Everybody not sticking their grubby hand out, expecting me to shake it.
Nobody trying to hug me, either.
Just like I love it that people finally can figure out to keep their distance in supermarkets.
I hope it stays that way for ever.
Daniel, there are no "armed guards" at DTU.
We have armed guards at Copenhagen airport and the jewish synagoges and one jewish market.all of those are for the same reason, to keep the allahu akhbar types in check.
Nowhere else.
It is the kind of bullshit that sounds good, though.
You have to present a test to the armed guards to enter the university.
Oh my god, big brother is taking over.
Run for the hills.
We have armed guards at Copenhagen airport and the jewish synagoges and one jewish market.all of those are for the same reason, to keep the allahu akhbar types in check.
Nowhere else.
It is the kind of bullshit that sounds good, though.
You have to present a test to the armed guards to enter the university.
Oh my god, big brother is taking over.
Run for the hills.
murphy4trees
TreeHouser
I AM glad to have an insider information in response to the above letter to the editor. What about the rest of it?
The weird thing about the rest of it is that it is the exact opposite of what is actually to be going on.
The big news last saturday was that the new fast type of test ( anti gene test) only caught about 50% of infected cases.
To verify that, they did a test where 117,670 persons were tested with both types of tests within 48 hours and out of the 4069 found in the PCR test, the speedy test only caught 2159.
That is 47% that tested falsely negative.
Why someone would decide to turn facts 180 degrees around, is beyond me.
I mean, altering fact a bit, maybe.
But turning them exactly upside down............weird.
When you asked, I remembered reading the article in saturday's paper, which fortunately hadn't been recycled yet, so I got it out of the paper bin and looked at it again.
Another thing BTW, the proposed Covid passport is not just for those who have been vaccinated.
If you have either been vaccinated, had Covid and been tested for antibodies or have had a negative test within 72 hours, the passport is valid.
That does of course mean that those who are just tested negative, will have to update that regularly, but that is hardly the end of the World.
But of course " Will lead to a divided society" sounds better.
The big news last saturday was that the new fast type of test ( anti gene test) only caught about 50% of infected cases.
To verify that, they did a test where 117,670 persons were tested with both types of tests within 48 hours and out of the 4069 found in the PCR test, the speedy test only caught 2159.
That is 47% that tested falsely negative.
Why someone would decide to turn facts 180 degrees around, is beyond me.
I mean, altering fact a bit, maybe.
But turning them exactly upside down............weird.
When you asked, I remembered reading the article in saturday's paper, which fortunately hadn't been recycled yet, so I got it out of the paper bin and looked at it again.
Another thing BTW, the proposed Covid passport is not just for those who have been vaccinated.
If you have either been vaccinated, had Covid and been tested for antibodies or have had a negative test within 72 hours, the passport is valid.
That does of course mean that those who are just tested negative, will have to update that regularly, but that is hardly the end of the World.
But of course " Will lead to a divided society" sounds better.
murphy4trees
TreeHouser
thanks for clarifying the anti gene test is correct and the PCR is yielding false positives instead of the other false negative.. just a thought as I haven't studied it.
murphy4trees
TreeHouser
this scientist lays it out:
Please understand that chain emails and YouTube videos are not sources. For the love of God stop drowning us in bullshit and find a legit source. "Scientists " working on medical stuff aren't making videos, they publish stuff in medical journals, where people can't just vomit whatever they want to. Is there possibly bias in a medical trial? Of course. Is it likely statistically relevant? Likely no. And before you even ask, hell no I'm not even gonna click on that.
murphy4trees
TreeHouser
Maybe on the chain emails, but please do not dismiss medical doctors and scientists that are getting the message out through social media. This subject actually comes up in the above video. You all fight like kids on the playground... How about you stop "drowning" in that.
Frankie
I Build and Run Ported Saws !
Trouble is , We now have the censorship of ANYTHING that goes against the MSM narrative. from street urchins to PHDs. This equates to a modern day book burning and should concern us all deeply. IF no other viewpoint is allowed then you are being told what to think instead of deciding for yourself
murphy4trees
TreeHouser
Introduction: Since the US CDC was founded, an unholy alliance has infiltrated public health in the US — euphemistically referred to as “industry/government partnerships” and “Not-for-Profit” government entities — the wicked marriage has infused profit motives into US government agencies charged with regulating medical and pharmaceutical industries. Those involved view themselves as agents working toward a “greater good” — notwithstanding, the trappings of perverse incentives and presumed moral dictates, agencies designed by past generations to protect the US population from harm from corporatist tendencies have been completely captured and subverted. Apologists for regulatory capture even laud the “benefits” of collusion between corporations and the agencies that have been designed — and are funded to — provide regulatory oversight (Reiss, 2011). It seems surreal to consider the brazen use and even celebration of the combination of pharmaceutical influences and matters of state. The “revolving door” between corporations and agencies has been widely recognized for some time – including the FDA (Piller, 2018; Kaplan, 2016), CDC (Reuters, 2009; National Public Radio, 2009). Thirty-nine percent of National Institutes of Health (NIH) COVID-19 Treatment Guidelines Panel had tied to Pharmaceutical or Biotechnology companies – this was the committee that recommended the expensive Remdesivir over the inexpensive hydroxychloroquine for treatment of COVID-19. Remdesivir is made by Gilead — and eight of the COVID-19 Treatment Guidelines Panel had ties to Gilead. As well documented as these abuses are, nothing comes of them — even if public health suffers. The scope of its influence on the quality of science that is supposed to inform public health and medical policy is only just now becoming painfully apparent. The US media is likewise utterly captured due to revenue from direct-to-consumer marketing of pharmaceutical products; this quite literally means that the US does not have a free and independent press.
International Journal of Vaccine Theory, Practice, and Research 1(2), December 31, 2020 Page | 184
from: https://jameslyonsweiler.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Plan-B-IJVTPR-Volume-1-Issue-_2.pdf
International Journal of Vaccine Theory, Practice, and Research 1(2), December 31, 2020 Page | 184
from: https://jameslyonsweiler.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Plan-B-IJVTPR-Volume-1-Issue-_2.pdf
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Burnham
Woods walker
That's a valid point, Terri.
This post of yours, and some others, and some reporting I've listened to or read, and some quiet thinking on my part are combining to have me reassessing my initial reaction to the idea. Not sure I'm over that gut feeling, but feeling less strident anyway.
BeerGeek
Tree Numbnutz
Oops, this doesn't fit the narrative...
Laboratories in US can’t find Covid-19 in 1500 positive tests | Principia Scientific Intl.
Laboratories in US can’t find Covid-19 in 1500 positive tests | Principia Scientific Intl.
Mellow
BCMA
While I'd like to believe that, the source is questionable at best.
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