hinge pics

[murphy4trees]

It's really not much up for debate. The open face top cut first (GOL) technique is considered much easier to match cuts.

That pic is my evidence. How did I know that cut was made with the bottom cut first?

Is there any training organization on the planet that teaches bottom cut first? There are many advantages to the Humboldt in logging, yet GOL open face is often mandated.

Sure, there is a strong tendency to feel more comfortable to cut the way you were taught. That doesn't mean it's easier. The ability to look through the kerf of the top cut and see the tip of the bar as the bottom cut finishes makes the cuts of the open face cut easier to match. Hardly a matter of debate.

 

[murphy4trees]

fighting a little side lean

 

[stig]

Yup, obviously making the top cut first makes for a nice clean face cut.
Picture clearly shows that, even if it took two tries.

When are you going to learn to sharpen a saw and cutting with it without jiggling it from side to side?

 

[murphy4trees]

LOL

 

[Marc-Antoine]

In tree, for small tops etc.; if bottom cut last, can use to shoot the pie slice out the side.

That's funny to do and it looks cool, but last time (a bit unexpected), I got a broken tile by ricocheting.

 

[Burnham]

That pic is my evidence. How did I know that cut was made with the bottom cut first?

Is there any training organization on the planet that teaches bottom cut first? There are many advantages to the Humboldt in logging, yet GOL open face is often mandated.

Sure, there is a strong tendency to feel more comfortable to cut the way you were taught. That doesn't mean it's easier. The ability to look through the kerf of the top cut and see the tip of the bar as the bottom cut finishes makes the cuts of the open face cut easier to match. Hardly a matter of debate.

USFS S-212.

 

[Frankie]

You might rabbit ... you might

 

[murphy4trees]

USFS S-212.

can you fill us in on the details?
thanks

 

[treebilly]

Sorry. I just know. I don’t need to see the chain make the cut. I make my base, then the top angled cut. Angle will vary for what I need but it ends up right first try. I don’t think I’m racist but maybe I am. I won’t drink tequila because once you let one Mexican in you invite the whole damn country. Same with the Dutch. You cut one Dutchman and they just keep showing up.
Also these groups that teach a bore cut with trigger release and a rope on every tree are teaching nothing. That’s how you teach for the highest number of “passing grades”. Really not teaching any skills.

 

[stikine]

S-212 is actually a National Wildfire Coordinating Group training course. NWCG is comprised of multiple federal and state agencies. The USFS has traditionally used this course or the Missoula Technology Development Center course to teach both chainsaw and crosscut. Neither course specifies which cut needs to be done first... there have been regional differences based on "tradition". Fast forward to 2016, USFS issues a National Saw Policy which is a step forward to get past the east vs. west coast methods that have hampered good learning and skill development.
USFS is currently working on a new module based training curriculum that will eventually replace the older courses. It incorporates all of the standard undercuts and more importantly goes into the "why" for each.
Apologize for the long post.

 

[flushcut]

Now we're talking immigration this forum is going to hell in a hand basket.

 

[stikine]

BTW, when teaching new sawyers...think "new" it has been my experience (with the open face undercut) that the sloping cut first is quicker for them to learn. There is no right and wrong answer here... the damn undercut needs to be aimed properly and compensate for side lean if you want to hit the target.

 

[Tree09]

I don't want to admit this, but i usually do the angled cut first if doing a conventional, which is my normal unless i have a reason for a Humboldt. I also do the block out fairly often, with splitting the block out with an ax and a snipe, especially on my doubled cut ones. Overkill I'm sure, but if I'm going all sniper mode i want to open the gap up so i can see in there and let it bend more. Learned that from the bible.

 

[treebilly]

I get that but are they actually teaching them how to use the sights both ways? Most guys I come across who claim experience don’t even know what those lines on the saw are. Teaching “noobs” is teaching the basics. I get that as well. I’ve bitten my tongue at plenty of training courses that say “never do this”. A basics class is just that. But I’ve been to advanced classes that preach the same thing. I started with the basics and have built off of them. Always remembering them but tend to vary based on experience and what is needed to fit the job at hand.
sorry if I seem a bit agitated. The outside of the box guy basically says what I do daily can’t be done. Even though I do it daily it just can’t happen. Back to what I said earlier, I must be an anomaly

 

[lxskllr]

I was never taught. I knew the basic concept from using handtools, then mixed that with pictures and written descriptions of rough dimensions to hold. I started with the angle first cause it seemed right. I then saw a lot people in videos starting with the horizontal, so I gave that a try, and it just works better for me. I don't need to look through a kerf to tell where I am. I can see the wedge moving when I start getting close, and then it's just a matter of blipping the throttle til it's free.

 

[stikine]

Like I said earlier, do what works for you to get the undercut in the way it needs to be...aimed correctly. I'm speaking from an instructor on the ground, not up 60 feet in the tree 😉

 

[Tree09]

Im self taught, using the fundamentals. I had 1 class of climbing after i had been doing it a bit, looked like an idiot on some stuff but ahead on other stuff. To this day i don't foot lock lol, i learned on ascenders so that's it.

 

[stikine]

Yeah Kyle, I'm not pretending to be a climber cause... I'm not

 

[Tree09]

Im not either but i do it

 

[murphy4trees]

I get that but are they actually teaching them how to use the sights both ways? Most guys I come across who claim experience don’t even know what those lines on the saw are. Teaching “noobs” is teaching the basics. I get that as well. I’ve bitten my tongue at plenty of training courses that say “never do this”. A basics class is just that. But I’ve been to advanced classes that preach the same thing. I started with the basics and have built off of them. Always remembering them but tend to vary based on experience and what is needed to fit the job at hand.
sorry if I seem a bit agitated. The outside of the box guy basically says what I do daily can’t be done. Even though I do it daily it just can’t happen. Back to what I said earlier, I must be an anomaly

Your skillset is far beyond what ANYONE would ever feel comfortable teaching. Let's get real.. NO one is going to teach people how to push over heavy back learners with equipment. NO WAY.. not like you do.

You have to lower your expectations and get with the real world. Once you get past a certain level there you're on your own. No one is ever going to take on the liability of teaching the type of falling and rigging that is so far outside the box.

And probably those that teach, don't know. It seems to me that the institutions that are responsible for teaching arborists are ultra-conservative... a bunch of boy scouts. While everyone has to start somewhere. It would be good if they could admit their shortcomings and just say it from the start, there are many other advanced techniques that we simply can't teach because of potential liability.

 

[murphy4trees]

S-212 is actually a National Wildfire Coordinating Group training course. NWCG is comprised of multiple federal and state agencies. The USFS has traditionally used this course or the Missoula Technology Development Center course to teach both chainsaw and crosscut. Neither course specifies which cut needs to be done first... there have been regional differences based on "tradition". Fast forward to 2016, USFS issues a National Saw Policy which is a step forward to get past the east vs. west coast methods that have hampered good learning and skill development.
USFS is currently working on a new module based training curriculum that will eventually replace the older courses. It incorporates all of the standard undercuts and more importantly goes into the "why" for each.
Apologize for the long post.

That post is packed with interesting info. Good to know!

Understanding the why is so crucial and so hidden. Even among trainers, the why for years always seemed to be, because someone said so, or this is the way it's always been done. When you really understand the "Why", then you can adjust to the countless mix of variables that show up in real-world situations.

Thanks for the clear info.

 

[murphy4trees]

BTW, when teaching new sawyers...think "new" it has been my experience (with the open face undercut) that the sloping cut first is quicker for them to learn. There is no right and wrong answer here... the damn undercut needs to be aimed properly and compensate for side lean if you want to hit the target.

I was taught bottom cut first and used it for years. Learned the open face (GOL) around 2002 and would NEVER GO BACK. It's fast enough and so easy to match the cuts. Lots of advantages when cutting with a short bar etc...

 

[Burnham]

S-212 is actually a National Wildfire Coordinating Group training course. NWCG is comprised of multiple federal and state agencies. The USFS has traditionally used this course or the Missoula Technology Development Center course to teach both chainsaw and crosscut. Neither course specifies which cut needs to be done first... there have been regional differences based on "tradition". Fast forward to 2016, USFS issues a National Saw Policy which is a step forward to get past the east vs. west coast methods that have hampered good learning and skill development.
USFS is currently working on a new module based training curriculum that will eventually replace the older courses. It incorporates all of the standard undercuts and more importantly goes into the "why" for each.
Apologize for the long post.

Thanks, and don't apologize...not too long at all. Great info, and properly updated...since my retirement in 2012 I have paid little attention to this evolution.

S-212 has been one of the few really top quality sawyer training programs for about 35 years. And it was fully developed within the USFS, back in the late 1980's.

NWCG is a fairly young inter-agency organization. NWCG "borrowed" the curriculum, which had been improved upon frequently since it's early iterations.

I doubt a new version will produce better, safer sawyers than before...but I have been wrong plenty of times .

 

[stikine]

Well, mister B it really has served the agency well no doubt. We are "trying" to take it to the next level based on recent accidents and fatalities. It will include more of the human factors that are always a part of why we do what we do and, most importantly, how we can break the cycle of poor decisions.

 

[stikine]

Oh, and NWCG has been around a bit longer than "recent". Not defending it but just being factual.