Trees Leaning Toward House -- Removal

[stig]

put the pull line through the canopy and tie it to the near end of the branch.
Tighten it, bringing the branch upwards, then cut the tree.
The stored force in the branch and the elasticity of the pull line ( unless you use Dyneema) will bring the tree over fast enough that the hinge won't break untill it doesn't matter, anyway.

I can't believe we can get into such a discussion about a tree, that is more of a black currant bush than it is a tree.
That lil' thing should be a piece of cake.

 

[SeanKroll]

Jonny is saying what my concern is...twisting the top to break the hinge...at least need to make Robert aware of that possibility. It caught me by surprise. I have my video uploading...we'll see if it is pertinent...apropos...relevant....fitting...

How much torque do you think it would take to twist off a hinge?

Imagine trying to twist apart a 1"x14" green, solid board, without pulling it over.


If your rope was pulling 10' to the side of the stem on a branch for no reason, with a good back lean, and the tree weighed 4 times as much, sure, it would want to torque off the stump.

#GoodHingesWork

 

[pantheraba]

I agree, Treesmith. There should be plenty for a good hinge. Regards the pull... it was Alex, which is almost as good as a skid steer. I think the top was probably too small to have the hinge do what I wanted it to do.

My bad for not reducing the side load first in that situation. My point is that the side load can rotate that top unexpectedly.

 

[treesmith]

We cut a HEAVILY-leaning ash tree the other day. It had two main forks, Primary slightly leaning, slightly lower one leaning very heavily to the west, with yet another off of it growing out at around 45*, also to the west. Fall had to be due north. I took the lowest one off, and set two pull lines, one in each fork. I put a block on the line from the one on the heavy leaner, through which I double-lined a rope back to my portable winch, which was set at about 15* out from directly behind the lean. This enabled me to flex that fork hard against the lean. The line from the most vertical fork went through a tail block, then a re-direct block, and back to the Boxer. I snugged the winch tight, snugged the Boxer tight, notched, back-cut, bumped the winch a tad, then used the Boxer to rip it over. Went smooth as butter. Without either of the lines, I could not have pulled it into the lay as it was hollow, and hinge was totally unreliable.

 

[MasterBlaster]

Dang!

put the pull line through the canopy and tie it to the near end of the branch.

Why didn't I say that?

Except, the far end instead.

 

[rfwoody]

Client: Hi Robert, I hear you do tree work, got some leaning towards our house, think you can take them out safely for us?

Robert: Sure I can, I’m fairly sure there won’t be a repeat of the power line incident, I’ll come along and take some photos.

Client: Okaaay, why do you need to take photos?

Robert: I will need to ask some guys on the internet how to do it.

Client: (turns to wife) you see honey? I told you we’d picked the right guy!

I had been thinking about a live instagram collaboration with a gopro on my helmet and volunteers from the Treehouse could guide me real-time...

(just kidding of course)...

back to reading through responses but didn't want to forget acknowledging this one

 

[stig]

Did I write near?

Oooooops!

Can I pull the " Not my native language"thing?

 

[rfwoody]

Altissimus -- Pulling definitely

Thanks Sean. that reminds me... with weight of tree I can use physics/trig/algebra to calculate required pull pretty much exactly.

Thanks Daniel. Nice looking work on those 2 videos. I can definitely use the retainer line and possibly angled hinge possibly. I would have my truck back there to pull from. But that ground anchor setup looks pretty cool.

Ryan, thanks. that is just what I was thinking...I'm still working towards climbing... in fact I did think about the possibility of getting some real experience with this job..... I did think about cutting some of those really bad limbs on the house side at least with my pole saw.

Ha, Stig, that is way more advanced for me especially in this risky situation!

No_Bivy, planning on my truck and MA doing the trick.

Thanks Steve, that is what I was thinking, especially with a retainer line if any doubt.

Gary Thanks! ... that is definitely some new info I had not thought of! wow. Will definitely be removing those long back limbs, then..... unless (possibly) I might just fall/fell them sort of to the side..... no, definitely need to remove those back limbs what I can get to. thanks!

Treesmith. Thanks for the bonus info! ... I have been pondering this. I was thinking $1000 (12 trees) ... and then cleanup, etc. extra (maybe not too much).
NOTE: the job at minimum is to remove 4 dead/dying trees (not the bad back leaners) and then another price to remove the remaining 8.
Was thinking 300 or 400 for the dead/dying ones and then reduced rate for the remaining .... well maybe 800 for all 12 trees.... and maybe 100 or 200 if I haul it off.
---- want to come in above "a guy with a pickup and chainsaw" but less than a big tree outfit. ............. ha but as for the 1.5 hours....... I would give myself 2 days probably.

I hear you, Butch.... I know that is the voice of experience!

... and Stig, yes on both counts, but I'm thinking these are "small" enough trees that the photos aren't too deceptive.

Thanks Jonny... yes, sounds good..... Question, please: what do you mean a rigging line on the but end..... you mean in case the tree were to spin coming off the stump and the but end roll toward the house? .... sounds like a great idea and precaution!

Treesmith, that thought did occur to me about the hinge breaking before the COG got over the top to drop it into the desired lay

ha, Mick, Stig, thanks for the relative perspective...............
thanks Stig...... (a "block" face cut is like a block letter "C", right? i.e. like 1/2 of a square?)...... the "gap"?
seems like G. F. Beranek talks about this very thing on page 280 "... In small or young trees, the theory of the gap holds truest. This is because younger trees have more resilient wood." ... i.e. net effect.... causing the tree to stay on the stump longer.

Question please: what is a German face cut?

Ha, excellent point on both counts, Ryan!

Jonny, your comments about the long limb twisting the tree have totally registered with me.... and yeah, it is a smaller tree so the block/gap face would be tougher to do..... and I want to keep it as simple and straightforward as possible.

Thanks Butch! that sounds like a great idea if I am unable to cut that back limb off, but I am hoping to do that.

Absolutely Gary! ...yeah, looking forward to seeing that video! (oh, great, you just posted in next...).

wow. scary stuff, Gary. Was that you up there? .... seems like a nice refined solution lowering the but end with the block.

....... but Question, please..... I don't understand the dynamics of why all that side weight caused you problems (caused the hang up)? .... i.e. caused problems (hanging up?) that would not have been if all that side weight wasn't there? ..... in other words, it looks like that top would have likely hung up anyway? thx.

Sean, is that a question for me or Gary? ......... I think there is enough room between the trees and the fence in back for clearance.... I might would have to pull a little from the side to miss the fence........ and I can put my truck at a little of an angle from the desired lay to keep the tree from hitting it.

put the pull line through the canopy and tie it to the near end of the branch.
Tighten it, bringing the branch upwards, then cut the tree.
The stored force in the branch and the elasticity of the pull line ( unless you use Dyneema) will bring the tree over fast enough that the hinge won't break untill it doesn't matter, anyway.

I can't believe we can get into such a discussion about a tree, that is more of a black currant bush than it is a tree.
That lil' thing should be a piece of cake.

Ha, must be a "slow news day" as they say ..... but as for me..... y'all's comments are a gold mine of rich info!

Stig, that stored force with the bending branch sounds like a great concept..... to experiment with in an open area.... or near my own house, etc.


Treesmith and Sean...... how did you estimate 14" ?

Yeah, the green 1x14 is a great illustration! ..... but there are some other variables in this case..... (small) possibility of uncertainty or bad spots in hinge wood... operator error, etc.... ha, yeah "#GoodHingesWork" .... but there is also the possibility of the hinge breaking before the tree is committed to the desired lay.... i.e. since it has so far to travel to get past the COG, right?

Gary, I didn't notice the side rotation (after watching it fall 3 times) ... so all that weight was originally pointing *away* from the camera?

.... so... correct me if I'm wrong... the intended lay was on the *far* side of those trees it fell into? ... and all that weight caused the tree to roll *toward* the camera, into those trees.... do I get it now?

Treesmith, so the line pulling the extreme west leaning branch was like a retention line keeping the hinge from failing and falling west instead of north, correct?


Butch, thanks. That will go on the back burner in my bag-o-tricks to use if necessary... but for now, I think I will just try to cut the extra back weight off.
that is one advantage I have is that I'm not locked into "production" work and I can take my time.


Thanks everyone for the verbose feedback... yeah, an easy job for most... but soaking it all in.

Did I write near?

Oooooops!

Can I pull the " Not my native language"thing?

???

 

[stig]

??? what?

 

[SkwerI]

If you charged me $800 to drop those trees (without having a clue as to what you're doing) and $200 to haul them off I'd drop them myself and pay you to haul them.

You can charge a high rate for skills if you actually possess those skills. And there's a huge disparity between your two prices. Why would you be willing to spend a couple days hauling off those trees for $150-200? I pay my employee more than that per day.

 

[treesmith]

Treesmith and Sean...... how did you estimate 14" ?

Treesmith, so the line pulling the extreme west leaning branch was like a retention line keeping the hinge from failing and falling west instead of north, correct?

In the second pic, the tree in discussion is fourth from the right. The service pole is a reference, as they tend to be 6"-8" in diameter...the lid of the propane tank is a reference (typically 14"-16" diameter)....the AC unit is a reference....my point was mainly in response to Jonny's post: "It's already a skinny tree, so I doubt there'll be much wood to allow for a thick hinge." I don't think that tree is so skinny that hinge failure is a concern. Far from it.

And yes, the line on the heavy-leaner was acting as a pretensioned guy line to not only help tip the tree in the desired direction, but, in conjunction with the tension of the limb, act as a lever to help prevent hinge failure due to the hollow.

 

[treesmith]

If you charged me $800 to drop those trees (without having a clue as to what you're doing) and $200 to haul them off I'd drop them myself and pay you to haul them.

You can charge a high rate for skills if you actually possess those skills. And there's a huge disparity between your two prices. Why would you be willing to spend a couple days hauling off those trees for $150-200? I pay my employee more than that per day.

I'd drive up there and drop them for $1000, and it's around 170 miles for me....

 

[SeanKroll]

Rent a tow-behind lift. Do the job easily and successfully. Charge way more for cleanup.
Use a rattle can... Charge more.

$200 for cleanup is the price of a chipper rental, no labor. Think about that.

 

[treesmith]

By the way, in response to your "want to come in above "a guy with a pickup and chainsaw"", I wish I had all the money in one big sack that I made in the simpler days. Like I said, I'd drive 170 miles to flop those trees for $1000 in a heartbeat. And I'd come in my pickup, with my chainsaw. I'd likely bring three, along with three throw lines, a few ropes, and a block or two.

I did a couple of jobs years ago out of the trunk of a Saturn sedan. The cash in hand afterward was all the balm my pride might have needed for working out of the trunk of a car....

 

[pantheraba]

Robert...I remembered it as rotating more....not as much as I thought now that I drug out the video. I remembered the limbs as back over the trailer, 180 to the face cut...most were off to 90 degrees of the face cut. So, we were wanting the hinge to hold long enough to rotate the whole top into the direction of the face cut...fanciful, erroneous thinking. Maybe an oak would have held better...better holding hinge wood. But that pine just popped. My bad call. I should have either climbed higher or to reduce the side load on that top. Go higher, cut smaller...takes more time but not as long as it took us to figure out how to get that top down without skewering the roof. And lots safer.

 

[Altissimus]

If you charged me $800 to drop those trees (without having a clue as to what you're doing) and $200 to haul them off I'd drop them myself and pay you to haul them.

You can charge a high rate for skills if you actually possess those skills. And there's a huge disparity between your two prices. Why would you be willing to spend a couple days hauling off those trees for $150-200? I pay my employee more than that per day.

...true enough brother , mebbee he could Sub out the technical work ... Maybe even help cranking on the winch some. Do cleanup , which generally is entry level in Treework anyways and a great place to learn the basics of Saw and Waste handling

 

[Altissimus]

Client: Hi Robert, I hear you do tree work, got some leaning towards our house, think you can take them out safely for us?

Robert: Sure I can, I’m fairly sure there won’t be a repeat of the power line incident, I’ll come along and take some photos.

Client: Okaaay, why do you need to take photos?

Robert: I will need to ask some guys on the internet how to do it.

Client: (turns to wife) you see honey? I told you we’d picked the right guy!

... Found this post particularly witty on Mick's part , guy needs much more real experience or will have further problems is my guess. I've been pulling Trees this week with good results. It takes good gear (Tirfor , heavy lines , Blocks , hell maybe even climb skills if only to set the lines or if it isn't safe to pull actually rig out and lower the whole damn thing safely in pieces, ect.) and even better judgement to make it work. Gambling Man with big limitations.

 

[Nutball]

We might have to get a thread together sometime for Mick's comics

 

[Tree09]

agreed.

Robert, you don't work on starting climbing, you buy gear, and do it. Practice low and slow, get someone to teach you, and just do it. You really need to give up on this "your own business" thing and go work a year for someone else. You can make a good living doing tree work, but it takes time to learn the trade. Like most things worthwhile, it takes time and effort, in the right atmosphere, to learn something as dangerous as this. When i started welding, i didn't just start out welding on live gas lines. I started welding in school, then a factory, then on construction jobs, then in fab shops, then in chemical plants, then started gas work. You have to pay your dues, and while this forum is awesome and full of the guys who literally wrote the book on tree work, designed the tools, and invented the techniques, it can only do so much. What knots do you know well enough to tie in the dark? Good starting point, because you need that to do anything. Chainsaw control, another good thing to work on to start out. Do firewood, brush clearing, and general landscaping to start. Work on the side with a guy who has a clue, and when you actually know what you are doing, and have the funds saved up to run enough equipment to make it profitable, then go in business doing trees for yourself.

 

[theTreeSpyder]

That is fair..
.
If going ahead here; should NOT work alone.
Robert, seems you would know someone that can drive truck for a few hours only, for $50 or so of your $1000 and learn to bill that as $1100.
Get a hell of a plan, with maybe 3 ropes already in trees, ready to pull, and throwline already installed in another cuz ran out of ropes.
Can have separate line for reach on truck and connect each pre-placed pull line as needed to line on truck.
Then bring man on site, to immediately dive in felling trees, buck,drag etc.
Lay down all you can w/o crossing them too much.
.
Try to cut out 80% of your risk and 50% of your work in those few hours just having all shots on the pool table all lined up. Might even start with easier hand pull fall to get co-ordinated with worker etc. Have short tag lines ready to use for dragging as full a lengths as possible to target location.
But move like ballet of pre-set motions thought out like a chess game. Timing is everything, align their time to help thru the most critical and bulk work. (shouldn't really need truck here but pix can be deceiving)
.
Talk to someone that talks for this and they end up getting you a few jobs; that $50 paid for itself several times over and over! You are less tired, mite even get another job or quote in too! That $50 becomes a sprawling investment in several directions and cheap insurance!
.
Highlighted tree i'd try for high throwline to center, trace down back and tie off low, knot on back of tree so ends up facing up after fall. This gives best leverage, seems like could flex this one too, and the line down back can help brace,curl top towards you more confidently than running Bowline to same area, pulling forward at sharper, unbraced angle. Rather than a gradual braced arc; also more of a rotational input for rotational output kinda look to me...
.
Please make sure with 'stick trick' or other 45 degree measure to make sure there is room for falls.
>>@ 45 degrees cosine = sine, so 45 degree sited distance on angle to top should equal height to fall where are standing etc.
Use wedge as anti-sit back and some help serving forward.
When using truck etc. remember don't need to hit with all truck has. Part of tree already wants to come forward (generally) and some doesn't. Just need to pull with truck and lightly upset that balance and let fall. Similarily, round log on ground see as ground contact point is pivot, half of log wants to roll forward, half wants to roll backward, so just sits, inertia sets in and that is what you fight, upset balance to forward and maintain new inertia. Not everything is bulldawg;that is just a blind view!
.
Need to throwline high leverage on strong leader, if twinned side by side; consider pull both for balanced pull.
>>but watch for weak crotch, if twins come low to stump, would fall separates or bind to monolith so don't crack up and separate from backcut etc.to be individuals not moving together and possibley even binding against each other
.
If can flex top can put some ready, self acting spring in system(to draw forward when weaken hinge enough w/backcut) AND draw CoG forward some too!
i see tree as weightless form, CoG is total weight positioned in perimeter of shape, shape itself is just handles and sails to engage the CoG thru. Best if can rope higher than CoG to have leverage over, and also possibly flex it forward too.
Make perfect facing, no crossed cuts especially from cut perpendicular to grain. Facing is what allows tree to roll forward, like removing chock from in front of tire. Don't cross cuts etc. so system doesn't bind against self; just permits and aligns a path of least /virtually none resistance.



When i've been stuck alone, maybe even guys too busy, what i should NOT admit to..
Super tighten pull line and have pulley that serves line pull to side halfway on pull length, with rope that leads to sawyer to pull to leverage line sideways when hinge thin enough pull rope that goes to pulley that then feeds to bend tight one to leverage fall.
.
Or the real stupid thang: heavy duty pulley inline far from fall, to pull tree that feeds rope back to truck 10' from tree to side, back farther than tree. Cut so far, jump in truck instantly w/o walking in front of fall 100ft.; to pull tree.
.
Can kill self blindly bull dogging heroically, or turn as much of this as possible into a brain game!
You might not be able to get anyone else to clean/haul that up for $200; so why only pay yourself that much?
>>that ties you up with grunt work at low dollar; rather than bigger dollar with mo'brain than bod work..


.
Similarily if i rented stump grinder, all stumps would already be cut, bulk clean-up might come later as i werk grinder to death for every penny. Similarily rent a splitter, try for weekend rate, have a good helper and try to make that thing only stop to re-fuel,cooking right on thru the nights. Line everything up to keep any money spent on help or gear to get most usage out of. i even used to have a hole dug to back splitter into so wasn't so high and easier to lift or roll large wood up onto iBeam etc.
Keep specialized tools moving to their specialized tasks when renting etc.
Get good enough that helper essentially does same for you, making you the specialized, high dollar machine to keep moving not held back too much from pumping money thru. Even stuff out so don't have nickel and dime stuff wearing you out and slowing you down from making larger dollars!
That is still starting out small, but more strategically!
Especially if might consider mite not have a 30yr.run ahead to figure out all this to then really get started..
.

 

[rfwoody]

If you charged me $800 to drop those trees (without having a clue as to what you're doing) and $200 to haul them off I'd drop them myself and pay you to haul them.

You can charge a high rate for skills if you actually possess those skills. And there's a huge disparity between your two prices. Why would you be willing to spend a couple days hauling off those trees for $150-200? I pay my employee more than that per day.

Here is my thinking for the 150-200 to haul it off (and I'm thinking that would be for the good wood only... not the brush).

* The customer is only about 20 minutes from me
* 2 or 3 trips max ?
* Can sell the firewood
* decent exercise for a day
* I kind of enjoy a day of that kind of physical activity
* $200 a day with truck, trailer, and chainsaw works fine for me.

i.e. I am not tied to a production type schedule/time-clock ... I can (and must) take things a little slower.

Thanks a lot Kenny, I've read it once, and I will read it at least once more!

Thanks Treesmith.... ha, good one about the Saturn! ... that's much better than "a guy in a pickup" .... I say more power to anyone who does any kind of work like this out of a car!

Thanks Gary, Altissimus, Kyle, Nutball

Yeah, Sean, I may look into the lift.... ha, and I did begin the rattle can paint job. pictures later.
But also, it is slow right now so I'm not pressed for time.

Thanks again Kenny and all.

 

[Nutball]

I used to take home a load of firewood chunks from a job in a Volvo XC90. Stuffed to the ceiling I figure I'd get about 1800lbs of hickory, about the max rating for the suspension of that model year. I wouldn't call my family rich by a long shot, but growing up in Volvos I never knew they were luxury cars, and I still don't think they are compared to what's out there.

 

[rfwoody]

 

[SeanKroll]

I woulda rattle canned that with a piece of cardboard for 'masking'/ preventing overspray, and been done lickety split, in 10 minutes, after a basic wash and if I was feeling wacky, a scratch with sand-paper, rinse and air dry. A one hour project, months ago.

Show up looking ratty, expect them to expect ratty prices. Show up looking decent...



Discussing truck maintenance, I had someone who'd driven past my chip truck from 20' away, ask if my chip truck was computerized much--- not because its anywhere close to new, but because its cleanish, white, and has professional vinyl signs. People are easily fooled by the 20' paint job from 40'. Conversely, patches of rust or primer can be seen on a white truck like scabs on a tweeker. Don't overthink it. Its an old work truck. Just one-ish color of white...an old truck probably needs semi-gloss or matte finish.

 

[Tree09]

Here is my thinking for the 150-200 to haul it off (and I'm thinking that would be for the good wood only... not the brush).

* The customer is only about 20 minutes from me
* 2 or 3 trips max ?
* Can sell the firewood
* decent exercise for a day
* I kind of enjoy a day of that kind of physical activity
* $200 a day with truck, trailer, and chainsaw works fine for me.

If you continue to think like this, you might as well stay home. That way you can go broke sitting on your couch rather than killing yourself doing manual labor. If you did porn, would you do it for free because it's fun?