Tree felling vids

[Wonder if Nice Guy Dave marked his corners on the world famous flop?
I know who nice guy Dave is.
What is the famous flop?
Is there video?
Google didn't help me.
 
Dave wouldn't have marked the corners on that pig, because his bar reached the whole hinge width.

Williard: When my bar (32" usually) doesn't reach, and I'm sawing a "pinch," (a face with no gap) then it is impossible for me--even after knocking out one half of the face cut first--to see if I've aligned my horizontal and diagonal cuts perfectly, or not. Now IF I could do it perfectly.... well then, in theory all I would have to do is chase both cuts until they intersect again, and there's the face. But there's really no arborist in our shop who can line up diagonals like even an average timber cutter could. :(
 
Good shot Gary!

Man, that saw sounded good. Sounded like a Husqy. :P

Good lookin' up mate. Got clobbered in the hardhat last Saturday with a BIG alder limb, cause I looked down just for a second. :|:

Hit me in the head from another tree, after my tree was already on the ground.
 
pantheraba said:
hahaha...well put, Jay. Lots of us, I suspect, don't get to do much full tree or big spar falling. I still labor to make back cuts level.

I saw my cousin take hay bailing twine and circle the tree from corner to corner of the face cut on a big sweetgum spar he had to fell beside his house. It was a great guide to help make a good back cut. I thought of it as a nice trick, not a rookie move.
Click to expand...

Thanks for sharing that one, Gary.

Tim
 
inbredJed said:
Now IF I could do it perfectly.... well then, in theory all I would have to do is chase both cuts until they intersect again, and there's the face. But there's really no arborist in our shop who can line up diagonals like even an average timber cutter could. :(
Click to expand...

Matching up cuts can be tough for any of us. I was always envious of the guys who had really good timber falling mechanics. I wanted the butt of every tree to look like a table top, and it used to piss me off when I would mis-match on a big tree, and have to dink around, shaving wood. I worked around some old boys who had been falling timber for years...some of them were awesome timber fallers, but to look at their stumps, and sometimes how their strips were laid out...would make you wonder. Now that I am a climber, and run so many different power saws(all with different hand placement), and don't get the reps, I find myself mis-matching a lot, if I don't slow down and check. One thing I like to do is bore the heart after I have my gob out:), and if my bar reaches all the way through, then you have a guideline for back cut to gob. Of course a guy has to read the tree, as I would never do that with a hard leaner. Also, of course it is not osha compliant neither.
 
inbredJed said:
Williard: When my bar (32" usually) doesn't reach, and I'm sawing a "pinch," (a face with no gap) then it is impossible for me--even after knocking out one half of the face cut first--to see if I've aligned my horizontal and diagonal cuts perfectly, or not. Now IF I could do it perfectly.... well then, in theory all I would have to do is chase both cuts until they intersect again, and there's the face. But there's really no arborist in our shop who can line up diagonals like even an average timber cutter could. :(
Click to expand...

Ok Jed, let's seperate the arborists and timber cutter techniques. Seeing we're on a arborist site and doing urban removals with no worries of flat stumps for the mill.

_First we have to make a "conventional" open face notch [diagonal cut on top, horizontal on bottom] which is typically 70-90 degrees, forget about 45 degree or less logging face notches which are designed to preserve stumpage and keep production up with the faster cuts.

_On the tree trunk between chest and waist high line up the saw to cut the diagonal cut first at 70 degrees. Before you cut line up the rewind housing and top cover gunsight marks with your target of lay on the ground.
Cut down perpendicular to the trunk until you cut 80% of the tree's diameter, don't worry about depth of cut from outside of trunk as 80% of diameter will make a 1/4-1/3 deep face notch.
_Proceed to cut the horizontal cut perpendicular to the trunk and use the diagonal cut kerf as a "window" to avoid cutting into the hinge when you see the saw chain.

_Backcut: rule of thumb hinge thickness 5-10% depending on species. Make backcut perpendicular to trunk inline with the face notch apex [inside corner].
Advantage of using a backcut inline with the notch apex is it's easier to avoid a bypass cut when forming the hinge. A raised backcut takes focus away from the notch apex. Some say a even hinge performs more predictably then a staggered one.

If the tree is wider then your guide bar do all the above to make the face notch. Then go to opposite side of tree and you will see the diagonal and horizontal cuts in front of the trunk, these will be your "marks".
_Put your bar nose into the inside end of the diagonal cut and cut down to 80% of the trunks diameter to match the other side. Now make your horizontal cut by putting the bar nose in the inside end of the horizontal cut and again watch through the diagonal kerf "window" for the chain to avoid hinge bypass.
_Do back cut.

This is some of the basic felling techniques I've taught arbs and linesmen for over 25 years and I've always had good feedback over the years from my students.
 
Thought I'd add these pics of my advanced gunsight with a 4 foot drywall T square to dial in the gunsight to lay precisely. The beauty of the 70 degree open face notch is it can be easily re cut for adjustment if an error was made in the first gunsight cuts.
After setting square in notch supported by the axe, walk out down the lay from the tree and by looking back down the squares 4' straight edge where your standing is the lay. Of course if there side lean some compensating will be needed.......how to do that? Go to "My Advanced Gunsight" thread.

Ignore the brand new Husqvarna 272XP and GOB sitting on the square, it's not there to hold the square in place. I took the photo as this was the very first cut the saw made.

SDC12345.JPG SDC12346.JPG
 
Cody: Thanks a million. I've definitely got to change up based on what you and Williard are telling me. So boring out wood is not OSHA compliant? Man, that's weird.

Williard: I can't thank you enough for getting out such a comprehensive response. I think that I wanted to learn the log cutter techniques because I deemed them so much more efficient for getting big trees on the ground faster--clearly not what the res. arb. needs to be the most concerned about. :|:

It blows me away to see seasoned timber/pulpwood guys like yourself, and Dave and Cody opening the faces WAY up when there's a critical shot. I remember that guy Jack (Soft Dutchman Guy) saying in one of his vids, that a conventional notch was "more accurate anyway." That blew me away. He seemed to alternate between Humboldt and Convention for no discernible reason. Now I'm wondering if he simply went conventional when the shot seemed tougher. I can't see how it would matter if the openings were of the same degree... probably a timber salvage thing... again... no concern of mine.

OR.... I could try to get into the woods. Just can't stand being away from my family to do what it takes.
 
Thanks Jed. Main point I'm preaching for arbs with little felling experience and yes even vets........ is make the diagonal cut first as you make your gunsight. Then watch for the chain through the "window" while making the horizontal face notch cut. Very very easy to line up the 2 cuts this way, you have good full view of what your doing.

In logging lingo the wide 70degree plus open face notch is called "birds mouth" or "split the difference" face.
You can go wider if felling for example a heavy back leaner downhill on steep ground by going 90-110% or more by combining a conventional and humboldt together.
 
Willard, could you explain your thinking about the need for such a wide face on straight trees. It seems that with a narrower 45 degree or thereabouts face, a tree is going to be well committed towards the intended lay during it's fall before the face closes.
 
Jay, re-read my last 2 posts.
With a narrow face you cannot see the window in the diagonal cut properly and aiming your gunsight with that first cut is also not as accurate.
Plus if fine tuning the gunsight with some extra adjustment cuts is much easier to do versus a narrow face.

It's definately not a forestry production face but it's the easiest to learn and work with and most reliable.
The most fool proof way to make a proper strong hinge. Down side is more fiber pull, but in the arborist world more holding control is good.
 
Thanks, I surmised that the window aspect was an element. I also thought that a little more than is required, so to speak, adds a margin of ability to compensate for factors, as you mentioned. I wasn't criticising, simply wondering if there was something I missed that a wider face provides. So much discussion at the forum about streamlining practices, the avoidance of extra time that might be included in doing something, if it isn't necessary....it's not often that working in ways that doesn't try and absolutely maximise the speed potential gets discussed. It's pretty complex I think, the give and take of reliability and speed that comes up at times at the job site. The whole question of it ties in with a lot of other discussions, notably ones that talk about less than desirable results.
 
HolmenTree said:
make the diagonal cut first as you make your gunsight. Then watch for the chain through the "window" while making the horizontal face notch cut. Very very easy to line up the 2 cuts this way, you have good full view of what your doing.
Click to expand...

Fwiw, many people prefer the more traditional approach of making the horizontal cut first and diagonal cut second, as it is easier that way to orient the saw perpendicular to the direction of lay for the first cut. And when the pie/gob moves, that shows the diagonal cut has been completed, no sighting into a kerf needed.
 
Ive tried it but indeed, I am too used to the other method and since it works well for me I've stuck with it.
 
cory said:
Fwiw, many people prefer the more traditional approach of making the horizontal cut first and diagonal cut second, as it is easier that way to orient the saw perpendicular to the direction of lay for the first cut. And when the pie/gob moves, that shows the diagonal cut has been completed, no sighting into a kerf needed.
Click to expand...

I was forced to cut Holmens way when I learned to log. I can't go back. I can, but it feels like wearing my shoes on the wrong feet. I never miss my cuts doing it this way either. But, to each their own. If the ergonomics on the saw suit me, I can start my diagonal cut dead on where I want it without even stopping to take intentional aim. Now because of the different angle of jonsered handlebars, I am off by a bit to one side every time if I start hammering away in te woods with a jonsered.
 
From a less experienced standpoint, I like this technique as I can see when I've completed the notch, and more importantly I can see when to stop if my cuts are not matching up before I dig too deep to where the hinge should be. That was a very good instruction for it, definitely a teacher's perspective, well worded. I usually match 2 angle cuts for about a 90 degree face, and with this technique I do not notice any added difficulty from not having a horizontal cut. I was told that having one cut horizontal makes it easier to match up, but i like having a nice wide "bird's mouth."
 
HolmenTree said:
Your relating back to the old timberfaller set in stone attitude Corey. Try my method and you'll see the light.
Click to expand...

For residential work, where you don't typically need square butt cuts for the mill, cut logs apart on a slight angle, and you can roll the log out easier with a peavey (or otherwise). No binding on the end.
 
Diagonal cut first is what is taught here, has been for some years. Reasoning is that once you start the cut you've set the direction, and all you have to do is line up the horizontal cut. Doing it the other way means you have to set your direction by finishing the horizontal, and then effectively still have to set the direction on the angled cut.

Another reason for a wide face is even a tree committed to the lay can veer off course when the face closes, if that happens at 45 degrees it can be a disaster, if it's nearly flat on the ground it won't go too far.
 
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