MasterBlaster
Administrator Emeritus
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Wedging isn't as trustworthy as using a pull line.
The Official Work Pictures Thread
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Gary those felling into the water pics made laugh out loud with delight! And I'm sitting in the coffee shop...
The pics of you cutting it up while standing in the water are priceless, I love them ��
The pics of you cutting it up while standing in the water are priceless, I love them ��
Burnham
Woods walker
I beg to differ. A skilled sawyer, experienced with using either tool, is every bit as reliable with wedges as with a pull line. Of course, your view is shared by many who have little experience or skill with felling with wedges, and very understandable. An unskilled sawyer and crew can eff up with either tool.
That perspective re wedges costs arborists every single day in extra time and effort to get trees on the ground. That equals less dollars in their pockets, as we all know.
MasterBlaster
Administrator Emeritus
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #21,504
It also equals ZERO house destruction which equals lesser insurance premiums.
Wedges are cool when there aren't expensive targets around.
Wedges are cool when there aren't expensive targets around.
Mick!
TreeHouser
I don’t see how.
If you’re felling a spar you’ve already, been up there, how much extra effort is it to attach a line?
If it’s a straight fell then it can take a minute to use a throw line of even spike up a bit and attach a bull rope.
There’s and old saying in shooting re. not taking chances with the line of fire.
“All the pheasants ever bred, will not make up for one man dead”
Same goes for clients house.
MasterBlaster
Administrator Emeritus
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #21,506
My thinking exactly. I'm not risking a dang thing.
Burnham
Woods walker
I again beg to differ, with you both...but that is our prerogative.
MasterBlaster
Administrator Emeritus
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #21,508
Remember, while you're an experienced woods faller, I'm not real sure if you have a lot of residential work behind you. If I'm not 100% sure things aren't gonna go my way then I'm gonna go OUT of my way to make sure things go my way. If it takes longer then it takes longer.
Additionally, as a subcontractor, I've worked with only one fellow who'd be willing to "take a chance." Every other treeco owner I worked for felt as I did - NEVER take a chance when structural damage could occur.
It's just a residential working mindset sort of thing, I guess.
Additionally, as a subcontractor, I've worked with only one fellow who'd be willing to "take a chance." Every other treeco owner I worked for felt as I did - NEVER take a chance when structural damage could occur.
It's just a residential working mindset sort of thing, I guess.
Burnham
Woods walker
I've worked enough around valuable buildings and other infrastructure to get the gist of the idea that breaking stuff is bad 
. I never take chances either. I just am more experienced felling with wedges than most arbos are, I believe. Thus more confident. I make sure of the outcome before proceeding, just like you do.
It's all good, Butch and Mick. Certainly no slight intended.
. I never take chances either. I just am more experienced felling with wedges than most arbos are, I believe. Thus more confident. I make sure of the outcome before proceeding, just like you do.It's all good, Butch and Mick. Certainly no slight intended.
SeanKroll
Treehouser
Wedging is way faster than pull ropes, in some situations. You never have to unbury a wedge from under a drop and leave, nor risk cutting/ damaging a rope when trying to get it out from under the log (if you can't keep most of it out.
Wedging is an easy one-man operation, allowing the groundie to be doing other work, not pulled off of what they're in the middle of doing.
I wedge trees near houses and drop trees along side house/ in striking distance of houses, as routine. Never had an issue, or even close.
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Wedging trees over near houses is not the place to learn, ideally.
If you want to learn to wedge stuff over, you just have to start doing it.
People often want to leave a thick hinge (thicker than they'd leave on a whole tree, even) when felling a spar next to a house. Makes it way more difficult, and possible to split the tree.
A pull rope is a good back-up, if you don't know if you'll pull it off. A retaining line, if you're worried.
I didn't wedge over back-leaning dead trees that leaned to a fast road, two weeks ago. It was a better choice to pull them.
A lot is situational, and skill-set dependent.
Wedging is an easy one-man operation, allowing the groundie to be doing other work, not pulled off of what they're in the middle of doing.
I wedge trees near houses and drop trees along side house/ in striking distance of houses, as routine. Never had an issue, or even close.
++++
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Wedging trees over near houses is not the place to learn, ideally.
If you want to learn to wedge stuff over, you just have to start doing it.
People often want to leave a thick hinge (thicker than they'd leave on a whole tree, even) when felling a spar next to a house. Makes it way more difficult, and possible to split the tree.
A pull rope is a good back-up, if you don't know if you'll pull it off. A retaining line, if you're worried.
I didn't wedge over back-leaning dead trees that leaned to a fast road, two weeks ago. It was a better choice to pull them.
A lot is situational, and skill-set dependent.
I sure a shit have, which is why I brought it up.
No way is wedges used by an experienced faller, more risky than a pull line.
I probably wedge over more trees in a year than most arbos fell in a lifetime.
So don't go telling me I can't tell when it is safe or not.
It was still WAY cool to pull it using a jet ski.
SeanKroll
Treehouser
Didn't Cory say that if Stig was putting up video, he'd post some pics, maybe with his pet badger?
MasterBlaster
Administrator Emeritus
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #21,513
Never thought that for a second, Burnham.
pantheraba
More biners!!!
Stig! The original plan was to use a ski boat...then a pontoon boat showed up. We started rigging it for a pull then the home-owner (FF bud of Alex) brought his jet ski over to drag the logs across the lake to the loading ramp. Since the spar was mostly vertical (a few degrees towards the house) we knew it shouldn't take too much power to influence the spar...plus I had spurred up that AM and put the pull line way up. So we opted for the (cooler!) jet ski. Alex had a quick release set up in case they needed to ditch the pull line...his backup to that was a sharp knife.
I was surprised at how thin the hinge was when it finally tipped. The jet ski was keeping slow pressure on the spar as I made the back cut...and I had two wedges for insurance that I was using/pounding during the back cut. I got to the point where I finally told the J-ski to pull hard...that took care of it. One of the fellows there (father of the HO) who has lots of practical experience in real world rigging..moves large electrical items, sometimes has to remove warehouse walls to get the eqpt out to get it on a truck, then ship it across country and then set it up in another site...a contractor sort used to solving real world problems. He and I were talking about how I would thread the gap I had to not hit the left side concrete sea wall or right side dock. I said lots of tree guys I knew (Stig, Jerry, Burnham...you feller fellows out there that are adept at wedging) would just use wedges to pound it over. I told him I would be using a marine skid steer, thank you, as insurance.
Anyway, it made for a fun experience...the neighbors were all ooohhh and aahhh. Maybe it will generate some other business around there...a pretty high dollar community.
Fiona...glad it made you laugh! We tried to loosen the spar tip from the mud with the jet ski but no joy. We decided to cut the butt (at 20 feet long) to see it that reduced pressure would let the other 40 feet float up. I told Alex, "I'm gonna let you make that cut"...he said, "I know" with an understanding grin on his face. He made all the water cuts. The MS 650 made the cuts but it is certainly less than optimal to be cutting in water. But, no burbles or motor hesitations, just slow going thru the wood. Chain was new and did great in felling cuts...water cutting was tougher...maybe a lubrication issue. I got some good video of water cutting...seeing bubbles shooting out from the chain underwater. I'll mess with all that footage later.
I was surprised at how thin the hinge was when it finally tipped. The jet ski was keeping slow pressure on the spar as I made the back cut...and I had two wedges for insurance that I was using/pounding during the back cut. I got to the point where I finally told the J-ski to pull hard...that took care of it. One of the fellows there (father of the HO) who has lots of practical experience in real world rigging..moves large electrical items, sometimes has to remove warehouse walls to get the eqpt out to get it on a truck, then ship it across country and then set it up in another site...a contractor sort used to solving real world problems. He and I were talking about how I would thread the gap I had to not hit the left side concrete sea wall or right side dock. I said lots of tree guys I knew (Stig, Jerry, Burnham...you feller fellows out there that are adept at wedging) would just use wedges to pound it over. I told him I would be using a marine skid steer, thank you, as insurance.
Anyway, it made for a fun experience...the neighbors were all ooohhh and aahhh. Maybe it will generate some other business around there...a pretty high dollar community.
Fiona...glad it made you laugh! We tried to loosen the spar tip from the mud with the jet ski but no joy. We decided to cut the butt (at 20 feet long) to see it that reduced pressure would let the other 40 feet float up. I told Alex, "I'm gonna let you make that cut"...he said, "I know" with an understanding grin on his face. He made all the water cuts. The MS 650 made the cuts but it is certainly less than optimal to be cutting in water. But, no burbles or motor hesitations, just slow going thru the wood. Chain was new and did great in felling cuts...water cutting was tougher...maybe a lubrication issue. I got some good video of water cutting...seeing bubbles shooting out from the chain underwater. I'll mess with all that footage later.
Attachments
SeanKroll
Treehouser
Cutting until you can pull it over can be more dicey than pounding it over with a couple suitable wedges and a well-proportioned hinge..
Wedging is such a powerful tool that can be practiced in non-critical situations. I can't imagine it not being a useful skill for most/ all fellers.
Pull ropes require that you go to where you want the tree to land (such as in the lake, over a cliff, down a mountainside---where your line-angle will suck more and more), and you will need to safely access after the tree has fallen to retrieve the line, possibly under hangers or other hazards.
Wedging is like driving a car. At first, intimidating, interesting, exciting. After a while, it just does what you tell it to do.
The Art of the Wedge would be an informative thread. Different techniques, basic mechanics, etc.
I'd never seen anyone, aside from Willie, have a criss-cross pattern on a big tree. He thought it was typical/ normal to do it that way.
I suggest shaving the bark at the hinge so you can see what's happening.
What's good, if you want, you can have someone young do the beating. The saw does all the rest of the work, with a little positioning, and squeezing the trigger.
Personally, I like to cut and beat my own trees. You learn waaaaay more. You understand way better how hard you hit and the result, and that says about the forces and hinge and ...
Wedging is such a powerful tool that can be practiced in non-critical situations. I can't imagine it not being a useful skill for most/ all fellers.
Pull ropes require that you go to where you want the tree to land (such as in the lake, over a cliff, down a mountainside---where your line-angle will suck more and more), and you will need to safely access after the tree has fallen to retrieve the line, possibly under hangers or other hazards.
Wedging is like driving a car. At first, intimidating, interesting, exciting. After a while, it just does what you tell it to do.
The Art of the Wedge would be an informative thread. Different techniques, basic mechanics, etc.
I'd never seen anyone, aside from Willie, have a criss-cross pattern on a big tree. He thought it was typical/ normal to do it that way.
I suggest shaving the bark at the hinge so you can see what's happening.
What's good, if you want, you can have someone young do the beating. The saw does all the rest of the work, with a little positioning, and squeezing the trigger.
Personally, I like to cut and beat my own trees. You learn waaaaay more. You understand way better how hard you hit and the result, and that says about the forces and hinge and ...
SeanKroll
Treehouser
How many people can that jetski pull, in a water-to-land tug-o'-war?
Marc-Antoine
TreeHouser
I don't feel the jet-ski as a thrustworthy equipment when pulling matters. Maybe because I never tried one.
I love the splash, it made me really happy.
Will a plastic drum sustain such a chock ? or will it explode like a balloon?
Pulling the trunk sideway to free it could be easier with its leverage than lengthwise.
I love the splash, it made me really happy.
Will a plastic drum sustain such a chock ? or will it explode like a balloon?
Pulling the trunk sideway to free it could be easier with its leverage than lengthwise.
On wedges vs. pull line.
The hinge is going to hold or it is not. I have logged, and I have done residential tree work. I live and work in an area with millions of dead Ash trees. I wedge a ton of them over. I'll very seldom stop a guy from hanging a pull line, because if that brings the drop into his comfort zone, so much the better, but I stand by wedges.
I think it gets overlooked by arborist how much of a no no it is to tear up the wrong tree in the woods, or how dangerous it can be to hang one up. Not to mention transmission lines and towers. A drop in the woods often has to be just as accurate as if a house was near by, and often there is no one to pull a rope for you. Wedges work for that in that environment, so short of wind why would they not work in a yard? They are also crazy fast compared to a pull line most of the time.
The hinge is going to hold or it is not. I have logged, and I have done residential tree work. I live and work in an area with millions of dead Ash trees. I wedge a ton of them over. I'll very seldom stop a guy from hanging a pull line, because if that brings the drop into his comfort zone, so much the better, but I stand by wedges.
I think it gets overlooked by arborist how much of a no no it is to tear up the wrong tree in the woods, or how dangerous it can be to hang one up. Not to mention transmission lines and towers. A drop in the woods often has to be just as accurate as if a house was near by, and often there is no one to pull a rope for you. Wedges work for that in that environment, so short of wind why would they not work in a yard? They are also crazy fast compared to a pull line most of the time.
Burnham
Woods walker
Yessir...I've been beating the same drum for over 15 years in online arborist websites. Still have not convinced many, I fear. Their loss, as far as I'm concerned. But again, if you don't have the chops to fell with wedges, then it's a fool's errand to try it just because Burnham says it's his way more often than not. And be sure you understand, I have chosen to set pull lines too, when in my experience wedges would be less that completely trustworthy, especially with valuable targets in the mix.
You need to go with the skills you have. Stupid to do otherwise.
You need to go with the skills you have. Stupid to do otherwise.
Burnham,
I take down about 1,400 trees a year with wedges or a bottle Jack. I don't think for a second that it is a "stones" issue. I think it is a experience issue.
If most days you only take down a few trees you are not going to have the background to know a hinge in an intimate fashion. The absolute most balls to the wall climber I know can't even wedge his fat mom out of a bar stool, but he his an awesome treeman.
Let's face it, most humans are going for production lumber, and that creates a different mindset, and it waste no time to hang a rope once or twice a day. I don't want an arborist learning the hinge by my house either.
I take down about 1,400 trees a year with wedges or a bottle Jack. I don't think for a second that it is a "stones" issue. I think it is a experience issue.
If most days you only take down a few trees you are not going to have the background to know a hinge in an intimate fashion. The absolute most balls to the wall climber I know can't even wedge his fat mom out of a bar stool, but he his an awesome treeman.
Let's face it, most humans are going for production lumber, and that creates a different mindset, and it waste no time to hang a rope once or twice a day. I don't want an arborist learning the hinge by my house either.
Burnham
Woods walker
OK, I'm sure we are agreed on all your points.
But I wonder how many arbo "fallers" (or other tree fallers, really) actually understand that it's the hinge they set up that directs where the tree goes, not the pull line. Unless you have a very hefty pulling machine that can accelerate much faster than gravity moves the tree...quite hard to do, ime. Hand pulls by people, winches, most machines arbos use, will not be able to catch up.
Rope or wedge, if the face is malformed in all it's plentiful dimensions, then it matters little what mechanism moves the tree to the lay set by that face and back cut. Not speaking of side restrain lines, just forward motion pull lines.
But I wonder how many arbo "fallers" (or other tree fallers, really) actually understand that it's the hinge they set up that directs where the tree goes, not the pull line. Unless you have a very hefty pulling machine that can accelerate much faster than gravity moves the tree...quite hard to do, ime. Hand pulls by people, winches, most machines arbos use, will not be able to catch up.
Rope or wedge, if the face is malformed in all it's plentiful dimensions, then it matters little what mechanism moves the tree to the lay set by that face and back cut. Not speaking of side restrain lines, just forward motion pull lines.
forestkeepers
Forest Keeper
One small mulberry removal today, so we didn't need the full crew out for that. We did some truck & chipper maintenance, then split up for the afternoon. I went grinding, trying to play catch up after falling behind over the early part of the week on Stumpzilla. So nice to be back to normal size stumps! 2 silver maples and one ash, went fine -- just had to chase some crazy long roots on the maple.
Mick!
TreeHouser
Chasing roots is a thief of time alright, makes the finished product look a mess as well.
Bodean
Cali dreamer
City Contract....
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SkwerI
Treehouser
Deva, where did you get the bucket truck? We need details!
