SRT base tie question

[Peter]

Wow, that's tough! How strongly would you say that is enforced?

There have been several prrosecutions by HSE (equivalent to your OSHA).

It mostly gets enforced by clients such as local government or larger companies insisting on it, enforcement by HSE doesnt tend to happen unless there had been an accident, or a spot inspection (I have only had one spot inspection in 13 years)

Working for private clients one tends to get by without it.

 

[bstewert]

What's the penalty?

 

[Burnham]

Bob, for the longest time the two climber team was a staple of FS tree climbing protocol, one acting as ground support for the other, and providing aerial rescue capability on all projects. Just recently we have decided to modify that, still requiring the two climber team, but allowing both climbers to be aloft at the same time so long as they are within "unassisted natural voice contact" and climb with "quick descent capability".

 

[Peter]

What's the penalty?

First is an enforcement notice, if you fail to comply within a certain period then prosecution follows, penalty would be a (significant) fine usually.

If someone got seriously hurt or killed as a result of employer negligence or failure to comply with regulations then a jail sentence for the employer is possible.

 

[MasterBlaster]

Yea, we don't have that here, thank Odin!

 

[Paul B]

We do, WCB can fine and/or criminally charge an employer for negligence and worse I believe.

 

[KentuckySawyer]

If you don't want to use a biner then take a wrap or two on the trunk, then take a bight of the rope and capture the leg going up into the canopy with a doubled running bowline.

I'm a little hesitant about a carabiner in that position too. If I did a setup like the original picture, I'd use a steel carabiner, just to be on the safe side. Apart from that, I'd do as Skwerl suggested and tie a running bowline with a bite of rope. NOT the same as a Bowline On a Bite.

 

[bonner1040]

I was reading an old thread and thought I would throw my base tie in.

50kn ISC Big Dan Carabiner it kinda a cow hitch. It grips tight and puts little to no load on the biner.

The picture Dave posted looks like the best option I have seen yet.

 

[bonner1040]

Usually I tie a butterfly above the whole setup so that IF a ground lowerable rescue had to occur any rope can just be tied on and have a wrap taken, then my climbing line could be cut or whatever.

 

[SouthSoundTree]

I have been using a separate anchor rope for the trunk, RB with a life support biner on the end, attached to the climbline with a munter hitch- mule knot, with an overhand on a bight tie-off. If the climbline is long enough, there is no connector knot/ hardware to lodge in a crotch. We got a 600' spool to go with our Wraptor for Old-growth pruning. I like it. Just an idea. Sorry no picture.

 

[Burnham]

Here's a couple of pics of one option I use. It's a hard locked rescue 8, using a friction hitch safety, to make sure control isn't lost during lowering in a ground rescue scenario. I set this up as a Wraptor anchor, but it would be suitable for any SRT systen.

I came up with this one for use in training, where the chances of needing to help out a student (say, getting crossed up in practicing a switchover from ascent to descent, pre Hitchhiker, etc., days) might be higher than in regular working projects with experienced climbers.

 

[bonner1040]

I think I may just start tying 2 butterflys above my base tie. That way I can leave a fig8/biner with my bag at the trunk. I dont see myself carrying an additional rope everywhere but I could tell the guys on my crew how the idea works. Then if they ever need to rescue me the 8 can be clipped to the lower knot and any rigging/climbing line can be used to attach to the other, allowing the connecting piece to be cut.

It gives you the flexibility of Dave's setup without having to set anything up.

Burnham, in your setup the rope is captured midline. If there ends up being not enough rope to get a climber to the ground whats a quick change over/knot passing method you would recommend?

 

[Burnham]

I'd surely be able to figure something out, if it was me on the ground (as could any number of other talented folks here reading this)...but I'm not so sure that I like the idea of someone less experienced giving that a go if it was me up the tree .

What I do instead is make sure there's enough rope in the first place; either a single length, or by initially setting the anchor just under a knot joining a second line to the first before the ascent is begun.

 

[Burnham]

Here's a system that was shown at a USFS climber training at Dorena in 2011. It uses a purpose made adjustable base anchor which is pretty slick. The ascent line is secured by a munter hitch locked off with a biner saftied mule hitch.

The letdown function is backed up by a prusik loop attached to the belayer's harness. There is an obvious weakness to this plan, as the prusik could be pulled into the munter if the belayer loses position and is pulled towards the anchor, rendering it ineffective.

The fix I recommended was to place the prusik above the munter, or to anchor the belayer seperately at a distance to prohibit contact between prusik and munter. I consider the former to be perhaps a more satisfactory solution.

 

[DMc]

...I came up with this one for use in training, where the chances of needing to help out a student (say, getting crossed up in practicing a switchover from ascent to descent, pre Hitchhiker, etc., days) might be higher than in regular working projects with experienced climbers.

You bring up a very good point Burnham. It is great that with a base anchored SRT system there is a possibility of a ground actuated rescue. But like so many things in tree work, the design of the system needs to be appropriate to the circumstances. Training and up-only systems are good times to have a readily and easily deployed system. At these times the chance of needing them is quite high. An experienced climber on a two way system that they are familiar with, trimming an open and easily assessed tree, has a much lower likely hood of needing assistance in getting down in a hurry.

What is between those two extremes covers a lot of ground, so it is necessary to adjust to the likely hood of the need and plan your base tie method on that.

Dave

 

[rangerdanger]

I'll throw up a pic of mine in a bit, I've refined it quite a bit and its nice and simple, it all fits in a small bag that gets stored in my main gear bag. I really like it.

 

[Burnham]

 

[CurSedVoyce]

Porty.... .. Just sayin...

 

[bonner1040]

The guys on my crew hassle me already because my SRT system takes longer in their eyes. They dont really see the benefits that I do so I just try to make it barebones and quick.

Carrying an extra hank of full size rope and/or a porty would be too much.

 

[CurSedVoyce]

Not really... But if you think so...

 

[Jack]

I've always thought Derrick's method was the best:

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/BOhLsrFOHp0?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[DMc]

I agree with you Nick, I think it is to much also. When moving through backyards and/or hillsides with multiple trees to set lines in, it makes no sense. Having the ability for a ground based rescue is something we have spent years without. Adding the complexity of components can actually increase the number points of possible system failure. In our effort to be safe we should not lose sight of a base ties primary purpose and the need for it to be bomb proof regardless of how may times it falls slack and is re-tightened.

Use it if it makes sense but not without thought.

Dave

 

[CurSedVoyce]

I use one sling or a small climb line (that I have in my climb bag) to attach a small to medium porty to the base of the tree. 200' of climb line (same hank I am climbing on), which is often more than twice what the tree I am working in high, stowed in a bucket or rope bag at the base of the tree. I could be 100 feet up and still get lowered from the porty. No knots for someone on the ground to untie... No complex system to try and figure out. Easy set up and take down. Burnams figure 8 is another set up I use from time to time. Porty is the simplest period IMO. It is not a lot to carry around... I'll take a pic someday when I have a camera again.

 

[DMc]

I have set up and used a small Porty for the rescue component many times. It is good. It is also heavy enough to make resetting your suspension point a bit more difficult. One of my biggest concerns with the weight and configurations of rescue systems, is that when slack is introduced, they fall to the ground. As mentioned it makes resetting the line more difficult, but a bigger concern is that during the retightening of the line things can cross-load or snag on a root or branch. This situation can cause something as small as a heart jump when what was caught gives way, too something potentially much more serious.

Like I said give thought to when and why you use something.

Dave

 

[Adam_P]

I'll usually use couple wraps and a running bowline with a yosemite backup. No possibility of rescue, obviously.

If I am going up for a while I use a Petzl Rig setup like the one Jack posted. I think it's a bit expensive for a base anchor setup but it's very easy to teach someone to belay you with.