SRT base tie question

[bstewert]

I will use a EDK-European Death Knot http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euro_death-knot
or double EDK. This asymmetrical knot will not jam against obstructions like symmetrical knots, which is one of its greatest benefits IMO. TDS. TDS!

Or Zeppelin Bend.

The Zeppelin is my favorite, but that's not what I'm talking about in this example. I'm picturing attaching your rescue rope to the tensioned side of the climber's rope above the bowline with a bight. In other words, a midline knot to a tensioned rope.

Not having ever done a lower rescue, I'm trying to picture this in my mind. Attaching a midline knot above the bowline doesn't make sense anyway, cuz you still have to tension the line somehow enough for slack to un-wrap the trunk. Plus you'd be dragging up all that extra rope.

Has anyone here ever done a real-life rescue like this?

 

[SkwerI]

Real life aerial rescues are kinda rare. I've never witnessed or needed one in 25 years of tree work.

 

[stig]

Me neither.

The extreme focus on aerial rescue among American climbers seem weird to me.

But maybe Americans screw up more often than Scandinavians, while climbing

 

[Treepreacher51]

Since I had Stehansen make me a few portys..... Well ya'll know how I roll.....

Ditto.

 

[kevin bingham]

if there are a couple of wraps around the trunk before you tie your bowline, it can be untied even when the climber is dangling. For a rescue, another rope is clipped into the midline knot. it is then secured to a lowering device such as a portawarp. The bowline is untied and the climber lowered. It would be more ideal to have the lowering system already in place but this is not always practical on a production crew. Since I am moving around in the tree a lot and sometimes jumping to other trees, or going through a lot of redirects, I will often have my groundspeople untie my trunk tie and then retie after I simplify my system. Then I go back to work. It is important that my trunk tie system be simple and easily inspected.

 

[Marc-Antoine]

when I climb in SRT, I use a stilson to tie the short side.
If I have to climb on the short side, I tie the long one with a stllson too, but made with a loooong bight instead of the single rope. It gives a knot a little bulky but it works well and it's easy to untie.
I'm afraid that's without consideration for lowering from ground in a rescue situation.

 

[DMc]

I will tie off with a bowline with a Yosemite finish. Just flick and tie on most trees but if it might slip it gets a full turn first. This is fast and safe as long you take the time to orient the knot in a strongly choking set. I have never needed ground based rescue but take the time to make it possible and simple by tying two alpine butterfly knots about two feet apart just above the choked knot. With the butterflies pre tied my ground crew ( wife ) can grab the rescue bag that is pre tied with two carabiners and a descender. Click click, cut line between knots and lower away. Most guys freak at the thought of cutting the rope, but how many times in your climbing career will this be needed? Most likely never, but it's there if you need it and will not slow production.

Dave

 

[flushcut]

Nice and clean.

 

[CurSedVoyce]

Cutting rope will always take a second seat to saving my ass FWIW

 

[bstewert]

when I climb in SRT, I use a stilson to tie the short side.
If I have to climb on the short side, I tie the long one with a stllson too, but made with a loooong bight instead of the single rope. It gives a knot a little bulky but it works well and it's easy to untie.
I'm afraid that's without consideration for lowering from ground in a rescue situation.

Sherrill's site says the Stilson hitch is not for personal support or life safety. What would be the problem? I've never tried it.

 

[bstewert]

Dave, that's just a darn nice picture. What a great backyard you have!

 

[bstewert]

Kevin, like this?




I'm still waiting to hear from someone who's been involved in a ground lower rescue. I'll rephrase the question: Does anyone here know anyone who has been involved in one?

Stig, what do you mean the American obsession with aerial rescue? Aren't they like that in Europe?

 

[stig]

Not in my part of Europe.
I don't know about other countries.
What do our British members say?

 

[Paul B]

The only aerial rescue I have heard of here is in the competitions. I will ask the Bartlett and Davey reps next time I see them to see if they have had any instances of note.

 

[MasterBlaster]

Does anyone here know anyone who has been involved in one?

Darn good question.

 

[bstewert]

And I am asking about the "lowering" type of rescue specifically. There is such great emphasis on the forums and at comps for this apparently rare event. It would seem to me more attention would be given to CPR or how to deal with a serious saw cut or mildly serious fall (whatever that is), or dehydration/heat exhaustion, all more likely.

The only two rescues I've heard of locally involved the climber being pinned with a fallen branch, so lowering an ascent line was not an option. I think the likelihood of being pinned is greater than getting an ascender stuck at the same moment you've run into a bees nest. And assuming I'm still conscious, I think I can change over faster than somebody can run over and figure out what to do with that alpine butterfly.

I'm all for safety, and aerial rescue is one of my favorite events to watch. But I'd like to see having to get a sizable log off my big toe somewhere in there.

 

[SkwerI]

I agree completely. That's why my eyes just sort of glaze over when everybody gets discussing various ways of rigging a climbing system to allow for a ground rescue.

 

[Thor's Hammer]

Uk legislation is obsessed with aerial rescue. In fact all arborists are required by law to be trained and certificated in aerial rescue before they can move up to their tree cutting qualification. It's also illegal for a climber to ascend / work without a qualified aerial rescuer being available on the ground.

Not saying that I agree with any of this, but that's the way it is here. The over legislation of tree work is one of the reasons I quit. It costs a fortune to train these guys up, but their not allowed to even be on site without the prerequisite units.

 

[Peter]

I nearly did a rescue once, but the casualty managed to cut himself free and get down unaided. He got trapped under a top that he felled out and got hung up in a neighbouring tree. He had to cut a chunk off the felled stem, while it was wedged between his knee and the trunk. He had a tibial platau fracture, painful but not as bad as it could have been.

There was an incident near me very recently, a line clearance cutter stuck a 200T in his arm and neck, severing arteries in his neck and nerves in his arm. He got rescued with a bucket truck that was on site, and treated within minutes as there was a paramedic team less than a mile away. They celloxed the neck wound and airlifted him to a&e, repaired the artery damaged there and then, and then transfered him next day to London to repair the nerve damage.

If the rescue hadnt happened, or the paramedics had been 10 minutes later, he would have died.

 

[SouthSoundTree]

Better to have the knowledge and experience and not need it, than need the knowledge and experience and not have it.

 

[SouthSoundTree]

I can see the advantage of a ground-lowered system being greater in storm damaged or tall trees more so than shorter urban/ suburban trees with bucket or ladder truck emergency access.

As I am now having to climb into tall trees that have greater chance of unstable dead/ broken limbs with a long and difficult, multiple lower to the ground, rescue situation, I wouldn't mind having a ground-lowering emergency option.

 

[rangerdanger]

Hey bstewert, thats similar to how I tie off my SRT lines at the base, and is also what Kevin is talking about. The only thing I can really see is that I try to make the end with the carabiner a little longer, so the biner experiences no loading. Its there to ensure that tail does not come out, so basically a backup to the bowline.

Dave, I really like the look of that system. Its so KISS. I've seen numerous ways for SRT base tie off to include rescue but yours I really like, because its so simple and non gear intensive.

 

[stig]

Dave, I copied your picture and sent it to a bunch of climbers who are not Treehousers.

Hope that is OK with you.

I really like the setup.


Wouldn't want it for taking non-climbers up in trees ( like I did to my new apprentice) because you have to figure a high rate of lowering them out, and it costs a rope every time.

But for us, the pros, it is absolutely the thing!

Any idiotic groundie with a sharp knife or pruning secaturs can work it.

Thank you for that idea.

 

[bstewert]

It's also illegal for a climber to ascend / work without a qualified aerial rescuer being available on the ground.

Wow, that's tough! How strongly would you say that is enforced?

 

[DMc]

No problem, Stig, glad to share. You are also quite correct about its limitations, too. It is not a belay system for use in a probable situation but is more appropriate than complex systems that slow you down on the off chance you might need it.
Thanks, Ranger. It is simple and can be used on either long or short end of the line and also passes the flop test. With some sets that use hardware, the slack when resetting your rope can cause the hole shebang to flop over and lose proper alignment when tightened.

Dave