Various ways to tie bowline
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Eric H-L
Treehouser
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- #28
Ashley Book of Knots has illustrations of the same method August Hunicke has demonstrated. (Three illustrations labeled 110) I like how Ashley depicts and writes about dressing and setting the knot. This is the method that I have heard from numerous sources is preferred by sailors. (August said he learned it during a period of commercial fishing in Alaska) Is this one of the speed methods mentioned in this thread? Edit: I forgot to point out 1014 on this same page. The Hawser Bowline is the Army Bowline (name made up by me out of necessity ) that started this post. @Knotorious has educated me that this is also called the Snap Bowline.
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Eric H-L
Treehouser
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- #29
Ashley has the Cowboy Bowline listed as Left-handed Bowline. Listed as Number 1034-1/2. (I suspect he added that after numbering everything else and wisely decided not to renumber everything by hand.)
Ashley deems it “distinctly inferior”
Ashley deems it “distinctly inferior”
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Knotorious
That Guy With The Face
This is due to the Cowboy bowline's similarity to a Left-Handed Sheet Bend (most bowlines are just sheet bends formed into loops), which is inferior to the regular Sheet Bend. I did read somewhere that one benefit of the Cowboy bowline is for use when ring loading versus the regular bowline where the tail could get trapped and prevent the knot from being able to be undone and because it's just sturdier. I think you'd really have to load both bowline's pretty hard in order to see any deficits in one or the other. If one were truly obviously worse than the other, there wouldn't be a debate raging throughout the world and on the internet for decades now with no conclusive evidence in either direction.
It would require rigorous side to side testing done throughout a series of replicable tests performed by multiple groups of people (unrelated to one another) before anyone can conclusively say one is better than the other. But theorizing based on the structure of a sheet bend is a good start, even though it is far from conclusive because bowlines (of any type) experience load somewhat differently than sheet bends. I do know that many sailors prefer the Cowboy bowline during the winter season because, since the tail is sticking out to the side, it doesn't freeze solid with seas spray and ice buildup onto the object it is tied around (nor to itself; the side of the loop), which makes it easier to untie when needed.
Fun Fact: The Cowboy bowline is also commonly called the "Dutch bowline" and "winter bowline" (for the latter, the explanation is above).
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Knotorious
That Guy With The Face
And then there's this in reference to the debate surrounding which is better (Cowboy or original bowline)...
"Various tests of the different versions' strengths show little difference;[4] conjecture about either knot's vulnerability to some failure remain pretty much only that – conjectures. However, the left-hand bowline (Cowboy bowline) is much more stable under ring loading, as it then acts effectively as a proper Lapp bend, while the simple bowline acts as the inferior version of the Lapp bend, which tends to slip."
en.wikipedia.org
These authors and experts argues that the Cowboy bowline is likely somewhat superior (under certain circumstances), which highlights why I originally mentioned that my reading has suggested this is the perspective of many experts versus people on Reddit and Twitter, etc. I had never seen these experts' opinion before, however, so this is simply new and additional proof for me.
Source for claim above:
[4] - Jan Simon; Vladimir Dekys; P. Palček (2019-11-15). "Revision of Commonly Used Loop Knots Efficiencies". ResearchGate. pp. 413–414. Retrieved 2022-09-17. tendency to spontaneously loosen under cyclic loading … Similarly to bowline, it is … not recommended to use in life-critical applications.
"Various tests of the different versions' strengths show little difference;[4] conjecture about either knot's vulnerability to some failure remain pretty much only that – conjectures. However, the left-hand bowline (Cowboy bowline) is much more stable under ring loading, as it then acts effectively as a proper Lapp bend, while the simple bowline acts as the inferior version of the Lapp bend, which tends to slip."
Cowboy bowline - Wikipedia
These authors and experts argues that the Cowboy bowline is likely somewhat superior (under certain circumstances), which highlights why I originally mentioned that my reading has suggested this is the perspective of many experts versus people on Reddit and Twitter, etc. I had never seen these experts' opinion before, however, so this is simply new and additional proof for me.
Source for claim above:
[4] - Jan Simon; Vladimir Dekys; P. Palček (2019-11-15). "Revision of Commonly Used Loop Knots Efficiencies". ResearchGate. pp. 413–414. Retrieved 2022-09-17. tendency to spontaneously loosen under cyclic loading … Similarly to bowline, it is … not recommended to use in life-critical applications.
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Eric H-L
Treehouser
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- #32
I definitely don’t want to argue with you cowboy bowline vs. orthodox bowline…you have clearly done your research!
I *do* want to correct a misunderstanding of Hunicke’s method (same as Ashley’s and hundreds of years of sailors.) It can result in either kind of bowline based on how you perform the tie. Perhaps in the video John viewed, August made the cowboy bowline by mistake. Or perhaps he prefers that and always does it that way. Thanks for your contributions Knotorious.
Eric H-L
Treehouser
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- #33
I was curious so I pulled up one of the August bowline tutorials. I have not watched the whole thing but what I saw he was doing the orthodox bowline every time. I want to emphasize: If anyone prefers either left or right handed bowline you can get it with this technique. The knot tying begins at 9:30.
Burnham
Woods walker
Marc-Antoine
TreeHouser
The reverse bowline has a well suited use: having two opposite forces inside the loop. Instead of having the usual bowline where you find the sequence support- rope- loop- load, the reverse bowline allows to have support-loops- load. In this case, the loop does all the job, the both ends do nothing. Two ropes to hold the load, but it is only a static use.
I think that's the one I was looking for when I was digging in Hunicke videos. I can't find the one I saw, but it was an alternate method, and it left the tail outside. Dunno if the primary method did.
One problem I have with these videos is almost everyone ties it backward from the way I do, so I'm following along, then think "Wait, What??", then "Whatever..." and tie it the way I usually do :^D It's reversible of course, but I never feel like learning something else for dubious gain. I know the bowline pretty well, but changing things up too much will leave a bit of doubt whether or not I did it right, and I prefer being right.
One problem I have with these videos is almost everyone ties it backward from the way I do, so I'm following along, then think "Wait, What??", then "Whatever..." and tie it the way I usually do :^D It's reversible of course, but I never feel like learning something else for dubious gain. I know the bowline pretty well, but changing things up too much will leave a bit of doubt whether or not I did it right, and I prefer being right.
Knotorious
That Guy With The Face
If you want to learn how to tie something in the opposite chirality, and if there is a set of images showing frame by frame how to tie something in the opposite chirality than what you prefer, then simply use a basic photo editing software to flip all of the images horizontally. This will produce instructions in your preferred chirality. The same goes for video...just flip every frame along the horizontal axis and you'll see it taught to you in the opposite chirality. I hope this helps. You seem pretty computer savvy, so if you were so inclined, I bet you're more than capable of this. Only smart people run Linux as an OS. =-D
@Eric H-L Thank you for acknowledging my contribution. It is appreciated.
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Eric H-L
Treehouser
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- #39
@TreeMuggs Here is TreeMuggs’ tutorial. It’s the same method as August’s. He does it slower so it’s easier to catch it. I just learned the word chirality from Knotorious. This is the same chirality as Augusts video.
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Knotorious
That Guy With The Face
This is the same method that I show in post #13 of this thread, albeit not as well as he does probably because he actually uses this method and I was just mirroring it without having any actual experience using it becaue I don't particularly care for it. I think I called it the Overhand Twist method. Direct link to that post below...
Various ways to tie bowline
How many ways do you know to tie the bowline? I learned the rabbit and hole and tree version in Boy Scouts. Then I learned the better way (according to many) used by sailors and arborists. This involves tying an overhand knot and “capsizing” it to create the rabbit already through the hole...
www.masterblasterhome.com
Eric H-L
Treehouser
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- #41
@Knotorious
Sorry I had not viewed this yet when I posted August and TreeMuggs’ tutorials of the same technique. This is also what I tried to describe as the sailors and arborists “better” than rabbit/tree/hole method. I tried to describe it as a capsized overhand knot which was probably confusing.
***. ***. ***
I have a question: Which is the snap bowline?
Knotorious
That Guy With The Face
No worries about the video duplicate. Just wanted to make sure people knew that mine showed the same thing. Nobody watches my videos! *cries inconsolably* Naw, I'm just kidding. =-D
Here is how a snap bowline is tied...
I like it better than the overhand flip method for sure.
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Knotorious
That Guy With The Face
Here is a useful diagram that might help everyone understand the relationship between the Sheet Bend/Lapp Bend and the Bowline family.
What's up with the Lapp bend? That thing's garbage. I can pull it apart with only moderate pull. I'm using slippery polypro line, but still... I can't think of any reason I'd want to use that over the sheet bend unless I was excited to lose my load.
Knotorious
That Guy With The Face
@lxskllr It isn't garbage. You're using a really slippery line and it doesn't take kindly to that. The Cowboy bowline is a Lapp bend formed into a loop. I just played around with it using two different polyester ropes and a hitch cord and it is super secure. Doesn't budge whatsoever. Just saying. Make sure you give it enough tail and dress and set it well before pulling (I'm sure you probably did).
"It is essentially a reverse sheet bend. The slipped Lapp bend also is an exploding knot, which means that when pulling the quick release end it falls completely apart without further entanglement. It is as strong as or even stronger than the sheet bend,[1] though much less common."
Source: [1] Compton, Nic (2013). The Knot Bible. Adlard Coles Nautical. p. 83. ISBN 978-1-4081-5476-2.
They talk about how it "explodes" because it was originally tied with a bight at the last step, to make it slipped.
Here are a few lesser known forms of the Bowline that I thought you all might find interesting...
Double Bowline on a Bight (Double-Double Loop Dynamic)
Spanish Bowline (Double Loop Static)
Rethreaded Bowline (Double Loop Static)
Scott's Locked Bowline (Inherently Secure Bowline)
Portuguese Bowline (Double Loop Dynamic)
"It is essentially a reverse sheet bend. The slipped Lapp bend also is an exploding knot, which means that when pulling the quick release end it falls completely apart without further entanglement. It is as strong as or even stronger than the sheet bend,[1] though much less common."
Source: [1] Compton, Nic (2013). The Knot Bible. Adlard Coles Nautical. p. 83. ISBN 978-1-4081-5476-2.
They talk about how it "explodes" because it was originally tied with a bight at the last step, to make it slipped.
Here are a few lesser known forms of the Bowline that I thought you all might find interesting...
Double Bowline on a Bight (Double-Double Loop Dynamic)
Spanish Bowline (Double Loop Static)
Rethreaded Bowline (Double Loop Static)
Scott's Locked Bowline (Inherently Secure Bowline)
Portuguese Bowline (Double Loop Dynamic)
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Marc-Antoine
TreeHouser
I can't qualify as "secure" a knot needing a long tail. That means that it tends to slip, at least. It's just antinomic
The lapp bend gives me too a serious concern. I know nothing about it's use practically, but just looking at it, I find it's structure iffy.
Look closely to the sheet bend and the bowline : Each rope's working part bends over the other rope's working part. This means that they share the same main bearing point and the load transfer is directly in line. The rest of the knot keeps it together.
With the lapp bend, the red rope does that too, but the green rope bends only over the tail of the red rope and nothing more. The bearing points are separate, the load transfer is indirect. Fold the red tail along the green working end and the green rope is a hair from slipping out.
I never want to put a serious load or my life on that.
The lapp bend gives me too a serious concern. I know nothing about it's use practically, but just looking at it, I find it's structure iffy.
Look closely to the sheet bend and the bowline : Each rope's working part bends over the other rope's working part. This means that they share the same main bearing point and the load transfer is directly in line. The rest of the knot keeps it together.
With the lapp bend, the red rope does that too, but the green rope bends only over the tail of the red rope and nothing more. The bearing points are separate, the load transfer is indirect. Fold the red tail along the green working end and the green rope is a hair from slipping out.
I never want to put a serious load or my life on that.
Knotorious
That Guy With The Face
Damn, aggressive, sir! =-D
It doesn't require long tails. That was me attempting to problem solve an issue with a particularly slippery rope type that @lxskllr was using. It doesn't budge whatsoever for me. Secondly, ANYTHING that is slipped is immediately disqualified as a knot for life support. It is never a good idea to climb on slipped anything. Thirdly, I am NOT suggesting everyone go out and use this largely unknown knot in place of a proper Sheet bend, where there is mu0ch more evidence to support its efficaciousness.
When used to pull another rope up, it is a special version of the Lapp bend known as the Quick hitch and you absolutely do not want to use it for anything but bringing a rope up to someone else.
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