question for stig short bar technique for open face or conventional notch

[murphy4trees]

Stig,

how do you recommend cutting a conventional or open face when the bar is shorter than the hinge?

This is a co-dom white oak that we had to rip the crotch down to about 3' height to get the first lead down..

Notch was cut clean, but it wasn't pretty getting there....

Ended up bisecting the notch, working it from both sides.. wondering if you (or anyone else) would do the same, or if there is a better way, and how you cut if the notch is only a few inches longer than the bar..


NOTE: the vertical kerf cut on the close up is left over from ripping the crotch
Thanks.

 

[murphy4trees]

Here's the bisecting cut and the angled cut from the open face

 

[stig]

I'm not sure I understand the question.

I finish both top and bottom cuts on one side, then walk across and do the same on the other side.

 

[Mick!]

What if the bar isn’t big enough to reach the other side, leaving uncut gob in the middle (I think that’s what he’s asking)

 

[murphy4trees]

I'm not sure I understand the question.

I finish both top and bottom cuts on one side, then walk across and do the same on the other side.

OK,
that makes sense.. do you have any methods for lining up the cuts or is it just by experience. I make the angled cut first so sometimes have trouble making both angled cuts level.. Perhaps this is one situation where its better to make the level cut first...

if the bar is shorter by just a few inches I brake a chunk out with an intentionally high back cut so I can see the far corner and whittle it out with the tip... sometimes easier than walking around the tree...

 

[stig]

I don't have a method as such.
Making as many face cuts as I do and being careful about matching cuts, makes it second nature.

 

[cory]

+1

 

[SeanKroll]

Dang, lost some editing. I'm tired, full, rainy day. plywood highway, not the time to re-re-edit.


"chase" your cut over to the far side somewhat, then go around, and reach over so that you can continue on the same kerf, if they line up. Once you go around the far side you can 'eye' the line to see if you're in the ballpark of the two kerfs lining up.

If the kerfs overshoot your needed hinge, restart,
or see if the layout/ and fell can tolerate the two kerfs to not meet, but have a short (1" or so) vertical wall on the far corner. If you have most of the cut matched up, a wedge in each cut on the near side, and wedge in each cut on the far side, banged in, should shear the vertical fibers.


If the cuts are coming up short, having that facecut-block out of the way will make 'cleaning up' the face-cut easier, or you may bang the block out, shearing along vertical fibers, potentially getting you the hinge you need. You might simply sacrifice a wider angled notch for a narrower notch that might be just fine for the lay by 'cleaning up' the face to the desired hinge location.





Double-cut full-gap faces can be easier to cut than typical sloping/ horizontal faces. Add a straight-across snipe above and/ or below the gap, if you want to open the angle. Back-cut at the top of the block for a tall flexible hinge.


If you bore vertically into the center of the block between the two horizontal kerfs, you can put wedge(s) into the vertical kerf and pop one side of the face loose, leaving you a good, flat surface to bang the other side of the block loose. Doesn't matter if you punch a kerf in the hinge.



One you get into big bars, you have to put a pilot kerf in with a smaller bar, like a 36". Might has well double-cut with the 36" then, IMO. Lugging big saw with big bars is a PITA.



Springboards are great tools. Getting above a crotch, or boring the back-cut almost to the top of the crotch if its a really big reach, can avoid the big wood down in an inclusion that flares out wide, and the need to rip between crotches, hoping nobody put a rock in between trunks, back whenever.

Cut the horizontal first, using the gunning sight from below if necessary, then humboldt it. Be sure your chain is tensioned right, in general, but especially with high cuts.

I cut a slot in the end of my springboard so I can hang the saw in the end (pistol grip up, bar down), climb up, cut, hop down and go, or set my saw into the slot, wedge the trunk, hop down and go. Don't put the springboard under the hinge fibers (don't know why, someone with way more springboard knowledge and experience said so, so I'll heed that advice).

SB, besides getting over a crotch, can get you over a sweep or whatnot, to cut where a lead will go with gravity versus needing wedges or pull rope.


I mean, kids don't try this at home.

 

[Burnham]

This is fairly easy, Murph. Here's a really straightforward method from big tree country. Let's assume no radically difficult leans.

Set the horizontal cut from your side, right where you want the hinge to be, nose of your bar buried. Then pull the saw, set the dogs out front at the edge of the kerf you were able to reach to, and cut in to a visual extension of the first cut, hinge deep. Then pull a little out, swing in again a little, over and over just a little at a time until you have completed the horizontal cut.

Do it right with finesse, and there will be nearly straight extension of your initial horizontal kerf with little tiny scalloped edges left by the lower edge of the bar tip that extend the horizontal cut through to the far side beyond your bar length. Those tiny scallops won't deter your fell a whit. On the other hand, big ones, too deep into the hinge or too shallow in the undercut...well, yup, you've screwed the pooch. An experienced cutter can do it without much issue.

Do the same with your sloping cut. It's not that easy if you have no feel for where the tip of your bar is when it's buried deep in a cut...but it's not crazy hard either. Spatial awareness is either in your brain and skill set, or it isn't...though I'll be the first to say that with a sawyer with generally average ability, practice will certainly bring the skill into bloom.

Back cut...reach around to the far side, bar tip at desired hinge thickness. Draw it in a little at a time, scalloping the back of the hinge, same as the far side of the of the two face cuts, until you have reached a point where you have enough bar to just back the dogs around to your side at desired hinge thickness, dog in, and complete the back cut.

Set wedges as needed throughout the back cut sequence. Drive her over when you have your felling cuts done.

Or direct the effin' skid steer...that'll probably work too .

 

[SeanKroll]

Scallop is a good term.

 

[Tree09]

For the guitar players here, if you ever get a chance to mess around on a scalloped fretboard, it's amazing

 

[Burnham]

Thanks. I like it. Though some other instructor somewhere most likely has used it before it came to me.

Describes what you see with stump forensics perfectly. A few decades of schooling baby chainsaw operators helped me develop both language to talk about the end goals, and refine my own cutting skills too.

If you want to do it, and have the touch, a gentle draw of the bar tip across the scalloped section will bring it near enough to straight as to be nearly perfect, as if you had all the bar you'd have needed for a full width felling cut. Of course, if you screw that pooch, you'll leave a dutchman that can provide grief one would wish to avoid .

I only would ever do that on the face, and that's just to impress and give bragging rights, assuming I'm sure I've scalloped it well ...the back cut surely doesn't need it.

 

[MasterBlaster]

Never seen a scalloped fretboard yet, but I'm game! Fanned frets, also.

 

[Tree09]

I've never even heard of that, definitely would take some getting used to!

 

[Bermy]

Great verbal description Burnham, even I could follow that.
Although as a short bar acolyte, Euro trained, I do what Stig described when the bar is long enough to overlap

 

[pete mctree]

I think access to the base of the tree dictates which of the two methods I use - If I can access both sides of the tree then Stigs method is easiest, if the topography does not allow access to both sides i.e. On a steep slope, then I use the method Burnham describes from one side.

 

[stig]

Agreed.
Burnham's method shines on really steep ground.
We don't have much of that around here.

 

[SeanKroll]

Sometimes, its desirable with a wide-double cut to simply keep both corners (Not necessary to have them as rectangular blocks, and gut a lot of the hinge.

This results in the inside of the 2 corners' blocks of wood being flat on the backcut, flat on the front, intact on the outside corners, but the inside corners sloping in, from gutting the hinge. If you have strong corners pointed the right way, without mad sidelean, its going where you point it, species dependent.

It take a lot of force to bend a strong, intact hinge. Reducing the need for wedging/ pulling power by gutting makes the process easier/ lower force, without losing directional control. Entire trees will have more weight and leverage to bend the hinge... spars, much less (not news).


If you have open space enough, and the lean is aimed at the layout.

Double-cutting with Gord's magic cut is waaaaay easier, in the right scenario. I had to chunk down 5'+ cottonwood from spurs. Did I want to screw around with trying to match everything perfectly, in the cold wind and rain (yay pnw winter tree work)? NO. Did I aim and bomb 10'+ chunks with no pull rope (imagine trying to get a pull rope out from under a 5' cottonwood log, smashed into the forest floor for 60'+) or wedges, while the groundmen processed and chipped, yes. Did I want to do bicep curls with two wet ropes in sets of 50 to pull up ropes, or keep my climbing line bagged up and as dry as possible (lighter), bearing weight on my legs? The latter.

 

[Marc-Antoine]

As I'm an average climber, barely better trained than a farmer, I don't have it in my blood.
So, I need a method.
I begin by the slanted cut (conventional felling cut most of the time). I aim to the lay immediately, even before beginning the cut, with the bar in the same position as it will be at the cut's end (both angles). Then cut, keeping the aim during the first inches to be sure. I cut until I come to the hinge emplacement, and finish the cut adjusting it with the intended level (not necessarily horizontal) of the hinge. It isn't obvious with the bar fully buried to guess its levelness. Then I start the bottom cut at the front, caring the bar's levelness and guessing the end at the near corner. I cut with no worry of the aim at first. I adjust it the best as I can when I approach the hinge. Hopefully, it's done for this side.
At the far side, I put the bar in the top of the slanted cut as far as can reach and cut, trying to keep the bar lined with the initial kerf. Not obvious here too, because either the saw's body can drag the cut sideway (too step of an angle) or the chain fills the kerf with chips (flipped upside down and backchaining). Cut cut cut until it comes approximatively at the bottom cut's level, by eventually feeling the bottom of the first slanted cut (tricky if the kerf is filled with sawdust). I adjust the aim at the end (aim offset by the trunk's width and the chainsaw's length). The same for the second half of the bottom cut, easier because the end of the slanted cut is in sight. A little more in the slanted cut if needed, but careful to not chase the cuts if a little something is wrong with the levels/angles. Normally the face is about done. A smack with the maul can help, a little cleaning, correcting if needed...
A verification for the aim is important at this moment. I had some deceptive fells, even recently, by not verifying one point or an other.

Edit : "the saw's body can drag the cut sideway (too step of an angle)", thinking at it, it's more of an operator issue than a saw problem.

 

[Burnham]

Great verbal description Burnham, even I could follow that.
Although as a short bar acolyte, Euro trained, I do what Stig described when the bar is long enough to overlap

Thank you, Fi...though I rather doubt you'd have much trouble seeing the picture I tried to paint even if I wasn't so effin' articulate .

 

[Burnham]

I think access to the base of the tree dictates which of the two methods I use - If I can access both sides of the tree then Stigs method is easiest, if the topography does not allow access to both sides i.e. On a steep slope, then I use the method Burnham describes from one side.

I'm perhaps a lazy rascal...even on relatively level ground, I'd keep to one side of the tree and do what I know how to do, more often than not. All that walking around in a duck squat tires me out . And the darn saws are heavy! Especially after I got old .

Unlike my fine friends Stig and Pete.

Lazy, I'll own it .

 

[MasterBlaster]

Perhaps my ass!

You're a lazy rascal!!!

 

[Burnham]

 

[murphy4trees]

This is fairly easy, Murph. Here's a really straightforward method from big tree country. Let's assume no radically difficult leans.

Set the horizontal cut from your side, right where you want the hinge to be, nose of your bar buried. Then pull the saw, set the dogs out front at the edge of the kerf you were able to reach to, and cut in to a visual extension of the first cut, hinge deep. Then pull a little out, swing in again a little, over and over just a little at a time until you have completed the horizontal cut.

Do it right with finesse, and there will be nearly straight extension of your initial horizontal kerf with little tiny scalloped edges left by the lower edge of the bar tip that extend the horizontal cut through to the far side beyond your bar length. Those tiny scallops won't deter your fell a whit. On the other hand, big ones, too deep into the hinge or too shallow in the undercut...well, yup, you've screwed the pooch. An experienced cutter can do it without much issue.

Do the same with your sloping cut. It's not that easy if you have no feel for where the tip of your bar is when it's buried deep in a cut...but it's not crazy hard either. Spatial awareness is either in your brain and skill set, or it isn't...though I'll be the first to say that with a sawyer with generally average ability, practice will certainly bring the skill into bloom.

Back cut...reach around to the far side, bar tip at desired hinge thickness. Draw in in a little at a time, scalloping the back of the hinge, same as the far side of the of the two face cuts, until you have reached a point where you have enough bar to just back the dogs around to your side at desired hinge thickness, dog in, and complete the back cut.

Set wedges as needed throughout the back cut sequence. Drive her over when you have your felling cuts done.

Or direct the effin' skid steer...that'll probably work too .

Nice description... Thank you Dr B...

Seems like the main problem I was having had to do with cutting the angled cut first. I was originally trained to cut the horizontal cut first, but once I learned the GOL method, I almost exclusively cut traditionals or open faces with the angled cut first... SO I suck at cutting humboldts. I can get them done, just takes a while, and is mighty awkward. Mostly use them in the tree...

Anyhow, looks like you are able to make the whole face cut from one side of the tree, which is especially important when cutting from the bucket, where it might not be possible to move around to the far side of the tree...

I can clearly visualize the cut as you describe it... I AM always looking for cutting methods that are highly reliable and easy for the unskilled and inexperienced.. Where the method itself insures a clean face without needing to rely on much skill from the sawyer.

That is one of the reasons I like to use the skid steer.. it really offers a ton of flexibility to reliably drop trees on a dime without needing a lot of precision in the width/shape of the hinge etc... Generally as long as the face is clean, open, and gunned properly, there is a lot of play in designing the hinge... Skid steer offers a lot of power and precise control of direction of pull... Mostly leaving fat hinges, which I have no doubt are much better at holding against side lean then skinny hinges, in most species...

I would really be interested in hearing your critiques of those hinge pics from the other thread, fully expecting to have a complete difference of opinion, so mostly just to get the perspective of a experienced sawyer/trainer... might be best to pm them if you're good with it.. It would be nice to approach our difference of opinions with curiosity rather than scorn and defamation...

In the mean time I'll try your method a few times just for practice, and report back.. If it works out, maybe I'll get around to learning how to cut the humboldt!

 

[stig]

And the darn saws are heavy! .

Some of keep up with the latest developement in saws.
My MS462 is WAY lighter than some of those antedeluvian saws that you run.

I use your reach around method a lot ( Hmmmmmmm...... just had a "Full metal jacket" flashback) but on the low facecuts on becch where we are cutting in the root flare, walking around to the other side of the tree is easier.