question for stig short bar technique for open face or conventional notch

[murphy4trees]

As I'm an average climber, barely better trained than a farmer, I don't have it in my blood.
So, I need a method.
I begin by the slanted cut (conventional felling cut most of the time). I aim to the lay immediately, even before beginning the cut, with the bar in the same position as it will be at the cut's end (both angles). Then cut, keeping the aim during the first inches to be sure. I cut until I come to the hinge emplacement, and finish the cut adjusting it with the intended level (not necessarily horizontal) of the hinge. It isn't obvious with the bar fully buried to guess its levelness. Then I start the bottom cut at the front, caring the bar's levelness and guessing the end at the near corner. I cut with no worry of the aim at first. I adjust it the best as I can when I approach the hinge. Hopefully, it's done for this side.
At the far side, I put the bar in the top of the slanted cut as far as can reach and cut, trying to keep the bar lined with the initial kerf. Not obvious here too, because either the saw's body can drag the cut sideway (too step of an angle) or the chain fills the kerf with chips (flipped upside down and backchaining). Cut cut cut until it comes approximatively at the bottom cut's level, by eventually feeling the bottom of the first slanted cut (tricky if the kerf is filled with sawdust). I adjust the aim at the end (aim offset by the trunk's width and the chainsaw's length). The same for the second half of the bottom cut, easier because the end of the slanted cut is in sight. A little more in the slanted cut if needed, but careful to not chase the cuts if a little something is wrong with the levels/angles. Normally the face is about done. A smack with the maul can help, a little cleaning, correcting if needed...
A verification for the aim is important at this moment. I had some deceptive fells, even recently, by not verifying one point or an other.

Edit : "the saw's body can drag the cut sideway (too step of an angle)", thinking at it, it's more of an operator issue than a saw problem.

That's the way I've been doing it very similar with just a few Variations to make it easier

I had a perfect opportunity today to try doctor b's technique but passed on it as I was down in the trunk flare and a just seemed easier to cut from both sides and bisect the noche which I have pictures of the post later

 

[cory]

I think access to the base of the tree dictates which of the two methods I use - If I can access both sides of the tree then Stigs method is easiest, if the topography does not allow access to both sides i.e. On a steep slope, then I use the method Burnham describes from one side.

+1

 

[Burnham]

Nice description... Thank you Dr B...

Seems like the main problem I was having had to do with cutting the angled cut first. I was originally trained to cut the horizontal cut first, but once I learned the GOL method, I almost exclusively cut traditionals or open faces with the angled cut first... SO I suck at cutting humboldts. I can get them done, just takes a while, and is mighty awkward. Mostly use them in the tree...

Anyhow, looks like you are able to make the whole face cut from one side of the tree, which is especially important when cutting from the bucket, where it might not be possible to move around to the far side of the tree...

I can clearly visualize the cut as you describe it... I AM always looking for cutting methods that are highly reliable and easy for the unskilled and inexperienced.. Where the method itself insures a clean face without needing to rely on much skill from the sawyer.

That is one of the reasons I like to use the skid steer.. it really offers a ton of flexibility to reliably drop trees on a dime without needing a lot of precision in the width/shape of the hinge etc... Generally as long as the face is clean, open, and gunned properly, there is a lot of play in designing the hinge... Skid steer offers a lot of power and precise control of direction of pull... Mostly leaving fat hinges, which I have no doubt are much better at holding against side lean then skinny hinges, in most species...

I would really be interested in hearing your critiques of those hinge pics from the other thread, fully expecting to have a complete difference of opinion, so mostly just to get the perspective of a experienced sawyer/trainer... might be best to pm them if you're good with it.. It would be nice to approach our difference of opinions with curiosity rather than scorn and defamation...

In the mean time I'll try your method a few times just for practice, and report back.. If it works out, maybe I'll get around to learning how to cut the humboldt!

I'm not sure what you are saying re the Humboldt...but my description of method will work with either conventional or Humboldt style faces.

 

[Burnham]

Some of keep up with the latest developement in saws.
My MS462 is WAY lighter than some of those antedeluvian saws that you run.

I use your reach around method a lot ( Hmmmmmmm...... just had a "Full metal jacket" flashback) but on the low facecuts on becch where we are cutting in the root flare, walking around to the other side of the tree is easier.

What works best for any of us, is what works best.

Antediluvian...how many of us dumb loggers would use, or even recognize such a word? Hoooah, Stig my brother.

 

[murphy4trees]

Here's a few pics from yesterday's sugar maple...
Same issue as stig mentioned in his above post, cutting into the root flare makes it harder to perform per Dr B's instructions..

And on this one there was actually a defect in the wood that caused a piece to fall out by itself, taking out the first half pie cut, so I took it as a sign from God that I should keep to methods that ft my saw handling abilities... Pictorial to follow:
establishing shot to show how 28" bar is for the intended hinge..

Second photo show the first horizontal cut which is made intentionally high. This cut opens the view up to make matching cuts easier to see. If you look carefully you can see exactly where the bar is under the wood (on the second horizontal pass) by seeing how the sawdust on the floor vibrates..

 

[stig]

One thing.
If you gut the hinge, it doesn't much matter what the middle of the facecut looks like.
Unintended Dutchman, scallopping, whatever.
As long as the corners are cleanly cut, the middle doesn't matter.
So on a large tree, where I'm really overextending my bar reach ( usually because I don't want to hike back to the truck for the 661) I'll often let my cuts overlap in the middle, which makes the whole process a lot easier and therefore faster, which is what matters to a production faller.

 

[murphy4trees]

As stated above I didn't plunge a vertical bisecting cut in the notch, because of a defect in the maple, this first pie cut fell out on its own. Normally I cut it out to open up the view.

Second pic here shows the finished first half of the bisected notch. The lower plate cut has been removed and the apex of the notch cleaned out


First pic shows start of far side sloping cut. Bisecting the notch allows faller to see exactly where the bar is to make sure both sides are level

 

[murphy4trees]

These pics show the final cuts made and clean out of the second half of the notch

 

[murphy4trees]

The gutted the hinge and pulled her over with the skid steer..

I've thought about Stig's point that when gutting the hinge bypass in the face cuts doesn;t matter so much, but still like to cut a perfectly clean face.. This was a 2600 job with exactly this one falling cut to be made. As such I don;t mind spending the extra time it takes to ensure a clean face... That's one of the reason's I started this thread... To a production faller the above cuts might look ugly and painfully slow.. It was actually 15 minutes from the first pic to the last, though there may have been some delay with both taking the photos and co-ordinating with the skid steer op.

Bottom line is I needed to hit a rock in the nearby flower bed to keep the main impact off the corner of the driveway.. We had enough padding down to protect the drive from the slide and roll, but not a direct hit... To me its worth whatever extra time it takes to ensure a perfect fall..

A production faller makes a living by saving time on every cut.. It's a much different mindset, whihc gives us much different perspectives..

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/tKKxnH3GN4k" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[stig]

Just to make sure I got my point across to everybody:

It doesn't matter much in the middle of the face cut IF YOU GUT THE HINGE!

 

[SeanKroll]

whadyasay?
That's what I was saying, too, I think. Maybe didn't post it, or it was lost in a caffeinated or late-night post.


Daniel, if applicable, and you're just junking the logs, some partial depth kerfs on the trunk(s), cut on the way down, will give the trunks likely places to fracture, directing the places of impact, and potentially inducing a roll one direction or the other, if desired (weaken the right, forward side of a spreading crown to roll it to the right).








I'm lost on the "plate cut" part. Please clarify.

 

[Tree09]

Ooooooooooo I'm gonna try that one from now on!!!

 

[stig]

To a production faller the above cuts might look ugly and painfully slow..

Not the finished cut, but the fact that you had to recut/clean out the far side of the cut.
What I try to get my apprentices to do, is get those cuts right every time, to avoid the waste of time in cleaning them up.
But like you said, doesn't matter a whit outside production falling.

I was going to make a video showing a quick and easy way to set a backstrap for bore felling a heavy front leaner, then I realized that it had no value for anybody here, so I didn't.

 

[rfwoody]

Just a drive by, hanger out, stalking, noob but it would have value to me, Stig!

 

[Stumpshot]

Stig, don't sell yourself short -- I see some value in it myself! And why not go for being the next YouTube logging star?

 

[cory]

Stig, arbs cut plenty of heavy front leaners. Post up that vid!

 

[treebilly]

I would definitely want to see this video.

I know double posting is bad but I just had a thought in my slightly alcohol induced state of the Swedish chef doing the vid. Now I gotta see it
Sorry Stig. My brain is overload right now so I had to let it out

 

[Graeme McMahon]

One thing.
If you gut the hinge, it doesn't much matter what the middle of the facecut looks like.
Unintended Dutchman, scallopping, whatever.
As long as the corners are cleanly cut, the middle doesn't matter.
So on a large tree, where I'm really overextending my bar reach ( usually because I don't want to hike back to the truck for the 661) I'll often let my cuts overlap in the middle, which makes the whole process a lot easier and therefore faster, which is what matters to a production faller.

 

[cory]

Dang, I cut a rock maple musta been just shy of 6' diameter with a 28" bar today. Sweet gutted hinge and just a tad holding on each side. Had to give it a push with the kubota because despite the max gutted hinge there were still a couple inches in the center that couldnt be reached.

I can't log in from my phone cuz I don't know the password

 

[treebilly]

For that size tree Cory a 28” bar is getting close to the limits. I figure 3X bar length is the max without getting into to much extra cutting. If you don’t short bar regularly it can be tricky. Notch has to be right as well as the gutted hinge to work out. My math says 84” is the max with that combo. With a 72” diameter cut I’d prolly went for the 661 and a 32” bar to make it easy on me

Butch should have it on file somewhere. Does this mean we could possibly see a work photo?

 

[cory]

Yes I will try if he has my password

I guess I'll try to make a new password but I hope it doesn't screw up my posting from my regular computer

Nah it wont work. Ive been thru this before. I changed the PW and when I try to log in it says I'm already registered under a different PW

 

[Burnham]

One thing.
If you gut the hinge, it doesn't much matter what the middle of the facecut looks like.
Unintended Dutchman, scallopping, whatever.
As long as the corners are cleanly cut, the middle doesn't matter.
So on a large tree, where I'm really overextending my bar reach ( usually because I don't want to hike back to the truck for the 661) I'll often let my cuts overlap in the middle, which makes the whole process a lot easier and therefore faster, which is what matters to a production faller.

Now I know I'm on the right path...when I agree with Stig and then Graeme chimes in with an attaboy. Gotta be right .

 

[cory]

I changed my password and was soon locked out of here on my puter as well as the phone. Got back on with the puter now, but the phone, nah.

Believe me, they are cool pics

 

[DMc]

Cory, email the pictures from your phone to your computer. I do that all the time for posting pics.

 

[pantheraba]

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Cat skinning!! More than one way....


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