Pecan Hinge Failure -- what did I miscalculate?

[murphy4trees]

Holy cow! I apologize to those of you who thought I was being an asshole with my last post. I was actually impressed with Marc's diagnosis and was trying to be funny. I hate being misunderstood. But you all keep on thinking I'm an asshole, that's fine. I'll head back over to my car forum and leave the tree shit to you.

I actually thought that BEFORE your last post

But certainly wouldn't draw any conclusions from the sherlock holmes reference.. too easy to misinterpret ..


you were a bit abrasive back in your drinking days, but you put many smiles on my face with your sarcastic and sometimes caustic humor..

 

[SeanKroll]

I'm guessing the pull rope wasn't very tight. No load in bed of 2wd. Think hinge.Newb.

Isn't that more of a pecan bush?

 

[murphy4trees]

That was enough of a bush to break a telephone pole!

Woody clearly said the truck couldn't pull it over, so the line must have been tight.. two wheel drive pick up, no weight in the bed, losing traction as the back end gets lifted is a good point... Did anyone notice there was a big tractor in one of the pictures?

should have used that tractor woody! Even with the low line set, the tractor would have gotten the tree to the lay! USE EVERYTHING TO YOUR ADVANTAGE!!!!!

 

[rfwoody]

The pulling was the least of Robert's problems, I fear.

Brother, you can't yet put in a felling cut worth a litre of warm piss. THAT'S your main problem, still. I won't even begin to itemize the many other mistakes you made on this little bush of a tree. Others have done a fine job of that already.

notwithstanding all the other good advice and comments given by all.........
... and still reading through and digesting same, but...

Thanks, Mr. Burnham for this positive comment of hope and direction!

i.e. IF felling cuts right, THEN i'm "in the ballpark" ... (maybe on the edge, but in the ballpark)

i.e. Felling cuts I CAN practice and learn to get right. (and IF I am unable.... then I know I should quit).

Coming in late here...

My first thought with the first picture was...that's a lot of branches on the back side, then saw the lean of the tree and it compounded.
All been said already:
Hinge was too thick (which can be thinned up to start the fall, but only to a predetermined point, once you reach that point you have to stop and try something else)
Rope too low
Going back to 'nip' was your final undoing, you cut through anything that was going to hold.

Just this week I had some small trees to fell at the private school, the gardeners decided they were too big for them and too risky.
They were 2' from a fence, public road on the other side of the fence, and back lean towards fence and road, couple of larger branches off to one side. Deeply fissured at the base, ants boiling out of the fissures...
I put in a high pull line, 3:1, placed my wedges and axe at the base...got the guys to put tension...looked at it again and thought...Nah, nope.

I climbed it, with the intent to cut off the two larger branches that were favouring the side and back lean, on the way up I discovered a few small branches tangled in the adjacent tree, I hadn't seen them clearly from the ground. I dealt with all of them, came back down and felled the tree with no further issues.
Face cut, half a back cut, place a wedge, bang it in, finish back cut with guys pulling rope...over it went.
Then the ants came out...OMG I have never SEEN so many ants, I think they had been nesting there for a decade!

All to say, always err on the side of caution, people may not understand why you take extra time to set things up, but at the end of the day it's YOU at the stump.

Thanks a lot Bermy... I was afraid you weren't going to look at this because of all the pictures and you have mentioned your slow internet speed.

 

[rfwoody]

Thanks ALL for your time, TIPS, TRICKS, analysis and your valuable and helpful accounts of your personal experiences, criticism, comments, and all.

IF everyone is not worn out from this thread yet............

FYI... tractor was not an option... nobody there to drive it.
FYI... my truck (4x4 with plenty of torque and grippy tires) never maxed out.... I got scared because I thought my 3 strand rope might break.

SHERLOCK HOLMES was (is) my hero .... I lived on deductive (and inductive) reasoning (ad nauseum to many) in my last computer job... spending lots of time in detective/(police) work trying to reconstruct scenarios why something happened .... similar to what Kenny, Marc, and everyone here is kindly doing.

FYI...... after studying all pictures again.... I do not *think* any dutchman was the cause of tree not going forward (see below).

I went back and got some measurements of the stump and trunk...
Sean and maybe Kenny and others had some questions... hopefully this will help.

 

[SeanKroll]

Why did you use ANY stump shot? You cut off the corner of the hinge, as seen in the picture. Harder to judge with stump shot. Stump shot is for preventing the tree from pushing over the stump backward when felled tree hits other trees on the way down (crown interference).

You can double over your rope for more pull-strength. You can triple it over?

How are you judging its tightness? I go partway out the span and wiggle to judge tension, with a rope-puller, trucker's hitch for a theoretical 3:1 (more like 2:1 with friction), or power pull from a machine.

When you have concern about tightening up the rope and it breaking, the recoiling rope could theoretically hit your back window if there is no headache rack/ wood shield. An EMT I know related how some teens were pulling a truck out of a ditch with another truck. The strap or rope was attached to the bumper ball. Probably winter road salt weakened bumper ball. It ripped out of the bumper of one truck, through the rear window of the other truck, with a bad end.

 

[Marc-Antoine]

Thanks for the new pics Robert.

 

[theTreeSpyder]

I'm sorry but to my eye the HORIZONTAL cut Dutchman in 2nd to last pic stands out
>>as closing to push up the fiber column as a mechanical stop command
>>not the highlighted VERTICAL cut that would close across flex axis of hinge just perhaps giving some breathing room(in right condition for vertical bypass/parallel with grain)
We are taught all kerfs do the Dutchman , but as always I think disposition to support column is key.
>>counts perpendicular to grain that give close up/down fiber column give the push command instead of flex command
.
If this Horizontal kerf continued across to last pic opposite side only, is where I was saying couldn't see bottom of tree to see if Dutchman closed on near side and snapped off to bottom of tree and thus Horizontal Dutch only left on far side in last pic.
.
More power could have helped, but feels to me like blocked path to me as root of symphony that brought here.
Deeper face could have helped, but then reduces all that wedge leverage from rear as bring back Hinge pivot further.
>>Lots of wedge seen, feels like blocked path.
.
Sorry it happened, but thanx for posting and not wasting it, and taking so well!

 

[Tree09]

The wood fibers run vertically, and since you can look straight down and see nothing but saw cut, you can see you completely cut the hinge off. If you use stump shot on anything, you need to take in account of the material being undercut below you. You basically turned your notch into a snap cut, with no hinge at all. Your biggest problem was the fact that you decided to nip, not knowing what you were doing, and cut the tree completely free.

Moving forward, if you insist on doing so, i feel that you should bore cut your hinges, no matter the lean. This way you can take forever, and get the hinge absolutely perfect. With these new pictures, it seems you might have had a slight amount of extra hinge, but not nearly what we originally thought. By bore cutting first, you can take your time to get the hinge right before committing. I would not use stump shot either, because stump shot is handy when felling and the top will contact other trees, possibly knocking the tree backwards, towards you. You need to not attempt doing that.

Another trick I use when pulling trees solo (which you need to not do ever again, seriously) is to use a snap cut for my release, so i have time to go and crank the tree over.

Finally, i have to say this again: go work for someone else, or give this up. You signature says you are doing this for hire, and goes so far as saying you want to be a CA. While both are admirable goals, you haven't paid your dues at all. By doing this for hire, you are disrespecting your customers and the fellow tree guys in the area that have learned the trade. You can do this for free for yourself, practice climbing if you wish, but you aren't ready to go in business doing this yet.

 

[Jonny]

Finally, i have to say this again: go work for someone else, or give this up. You signature says you are doing this for hire, and goes so far as saying you want to be a CA. While both are admirable goals, you haven't paid your dues at all. By doing this for hire, you are disrespecting your customers and the fellow tree guys in the area that have learned the trade. You can do this for free for yourself, practice climbing if you wish, but you aren't ready to go in business doing this yet.

This. Even if it's just a few months, I'll bet you learn tons. I wish you were closer by, I'd meet you on some jobs. I'd like to see you succeed and I'm not trying to scare or shame you away from this work. There's usually plenty of work out there for everyone, but you can't keep winging it. Mistakes will not always leave you capable of trying again next time, they can change your life in an instant.

 

[Burnham]

Robert, at every point when your three main felling cuts were not properly formed, you could have easily repaired the mistake. Every one of them. Slow down and fix that crap before proceeding.

Assuming you know what you are striving for in the first place. Of that I remain unconvinced, elsewise why did you continue???

And I will say again how admirable it is that you can take my admittedly harsh criticism with equanimity and grace. Kudos there, sir.

 

[theTreeSpyder]

Robert, at every point when your three main felling cuts were not properly formed, you could have easily repaired the mistake. Every one of them. Slow down and fix that crap before proceeding.

i think this is a do-over line, not a scribed line to build on >> lets go for perfectly machined carpentry in the cuts:
Burnham points out to concentrate on cuts, would mean make them text book pix i think/no forgiveness/be very harsh on self, don't pay this price again!
>>machine correctly to ALLOW it to work/flow, not bind against.

.
Lots of verbiage and local definitions out thar, not all consistent to each other,nor cause;let alone causation.
It is stated not to bypass any cuts,makes Dutchman, to then barber chair
>>Dutch is powerful, is something to watch for, can tear tree apart with own internal fight, but has legit purposes
>>but even in legit use, must be deployed correctly,machined right to take effect.
i've tried to de-lineate between a kerf bypassing cut and the way it hits the fiber stack when closes/enacted
>>Close down the fiber column (from horizontal cut across/perpendicular to fiber) can give dangerous or helpful push from pure strength of column
>>Close across fiber (from vertical or slanted cut) is the flex across column angle that hinge uses anyway, not the stop down column angle
i find this so true , that even if both cuts slanted to wide mouth, true Dutch would not be to extend either,but rather still cut horizontal/perpendicular to the grain in between the 2 slanted facecuts.(against usual description of extending 1 of the face cuts bypass other)
.
i think this is my best pic of that theory:

.
We name things differently it seems, and expect different things from them:

.
90's .GIF(!) drawing before all the fancy Flash came to town(literally before Future Splash was bought out to Macromedia Flash, now Adobe)
>>(ummmm before frog in a blender appeared as first major Flash saturation! Dang, feeling old!):

.
ordered ebay:funny,but true!
(Printed on back so the idea is to be able to wear the shirt BEFORE you die, kinda has been said several times;
it's sharp but won't make a corpse look better!..)

 

[SeanKroll]

17% thickness of hinge should be more like 5-10%. Easy to split a tree with too thick of a hinge and too hard of a pull. You pull the tree apart, rather than pivot it over, on the hinge.

The bore-cut to set the hinge is great protection to a bad hinge, if you know what the hinge should look like, and if you know how to bore-cut (hint: STUDY, PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE).
No stump shot unless needed. Stump shot complicates things when there is spiral grain, btw.



Sometimes stump shot is used on dead trees to give a tall hinge that is flexible. Out of your league.

Burnham can show you a thin hinge on a dead doug-fir.



If you need a how-to-fell checklist to review, step-by-step,
-shaving the bark off to see what the wood fiber is doing (is it starting to split from too hard of a pull and too thick of a hinge, or perhaps jacking the tree off the stump with wedges), and being able to see exactly how thick your hinge is,
-checking that your cuts are accurate before carrying on with them to the end
-maintain a hinge
and

If you can't climb a tree, so resort to dangerous alternatives,
and
If you don't immediately judge that the crotch you chose for the throwline was too low, or see that you could attach the rope in the middle to the truck, giving your a leg of rope for a high pull-line (leverage), and a low-pull line (back-up to concern of breaking out a high pull-line crotch)...

Then, this may not be for you.
Tree work is NOT for almost everyone on the planet. I tell everyone I hire this same thing. Most professions are not for most of everyone.

 

[Burnham]

As my friend Sean so accurately notes, "Tree work is NOT for almost everyone on the planet."

Robert, so far I have seen many a fine attribute in your personality...but precious few in your skills, or ability to learn these skills, as they pertain to treework. It's not just the saw work. You seem to be deficient in native ability at reading lean and limb weight, at setting rigging appropriate to loads, at basic use of a blinkin' trailer, fer gads sake.

I like you, sir. You are the most willing new and inexperienced member to put their questions out there, admit mistakes, and gracefully take criticism, that has come across Butch's site in quite a while.

But I greatly fear you are heading down a road that will perhaps lead to a very sad end. I'd hate for that to happen, Robert. Please consider my at times rude cautions as they are intended...no ill will, only a wish for your long term welfare.

 

[MasterBlaster]

But!!!

He loves Jesus!!!

Sorry - Imma turd...

 

[Burnham]

Maybe that will help...but I doubt it. Folks who count on any of the assorted gods to get them through, are whistling in the dark, imo.

 

[MasterBlaster]

I started a thread ages ago at AS about "praying" on the outcome of a sketchy cut/rigging.

Wish I could think of the title!

 

[Burnham]

 

[Bermy]

A sketch cut is a sketchy cut, and no amount of appeal to any gods, or prayer will alter the outcome of a vain attempt to knowingly ignore the laws of physics, that's why God gave us a BRAIN...to use it!

 

[Burnham]

There you have it...wisdom.

 

[rfwoody]

Just now got up the courage and time to dedicate to review and study latest feedback (THANKS! btw).

haha, since Butch said that no thread is every squeezed dry.... I plan to respond later after I digest it.

He loves Jesus!!!

Thanks Butch. That is the best complement anyone could give me.
May it really be true.

Why did you use ANY stump shot? You cut off the corner of the hinge, as seen in the picture. Harder to judge with stump shot. Stump shot is for preventing the tree from pushing over the stump backward when felled tree hits other trees on the way down (crown interference).

You can double over your rope for more pull-strength. You can triple it over?

How are you judging its tightness? I go partway out the span and wiggle to judge tension, with a rope-puller, trucker's hitch for a theoretical 3:1 (more like 2:1 with friction), or power pull from a machine.

When you have concern about tightening up the rope and it breaking, the recoiling rope could theoretically hit your back window if there is no headache rack/ wood shield. An EMT I know related how some teens were pulling a truck out of a ditch with another truck. The strap or rope was attached to the bumper ball. Probably winter road salt weakened bumper ball. It ripped out of the bumper of one truck, through the rear window of the other truck, with a bad end.

Thanks Sean.

stump shot used ("should" have been an inch or so?) merely because that's what the books generally say (e.g. Dent, Beranek, Jepson) especially for conventional face cut .... not trying to be a smart a** or argue ... just answering the question.

please, What do you mean by "double [triple?] over your rope for more pull-strength"? ... are you talking about 2:1 or 3:1 MA ... or something different. Thanks.

Thanks for the warning about the back window.

This danger could be avoided by pulling indirectly, using a redirect block/pulley from truck to victim tree, correct?

Thanks for the new pics Robert.

Thanks for your analysis! Hoping these add to the facts/evidence.

I'm sorry but to my eye the HORIZONTAL cut Dutchman in 2nd to last pic stands out
>>as closing to push up the fiber column as a mechanical stop command
>>not the highlighted VERTICAL cut that would close across flex axis of hinge just perhaps giving some breathing room(in right condition for vertical bypass/parallel with grain)
We are taught all kerfs do the Dutchman , but as always I think disposition to support column is key.
>>counts perpendicular to grain that give close up/down fiber column give the push command instead of flex command
.
If this Horizontal kerf continued across to last pic opposite side only, is where I was saying couldn't see bottom of tree to see if Dutchman closed on near side and snapped off to bottom of tree and thus Horizontal Dutch only left on far side in last pic.
.
More power could have helped, but feels to me like blocked path to me as root of symphony that brought here.
Deeper face could have helped, but then reduces all that wedge leverage from rear as bring back Hinge pivot further.
>>Lots of wedge seen, feels like blocked path.
.
Sorry it happened, but thanx for posting and not wasting it, and taking so well!

Kenny, if talking same thing... that HORIZONTAL "dutchman" was where I had been "nipping" hinge just before it failed and rolled to opposite side.
.... does that fact change your analysis? thx.

NEW INFO:

Pull line had been tensioned BEFORE I started the back cut. (as best I can recall)
When cutting the back cut, I did feel the back cut start to close on my saw -- which (naively) surprised me...
WHY?
-- I way underestimated (failed to calculate/estimate) back force for this "small" tree
-- I failed to take into account the stretch of my Samson 3 strand rope (even though tensioned, flexed and allowed the tree to begin to sit back on my blade).
-- i.e. even the doubled wedges (~2") unable to push tree past COG ...
.....PLUS ... force from 4x4 truck with low rope in tree stretched rope to point where I was afraid to pull more....
.... AND still EITHER wouldn't pull past COG ... OR ... couldn't break (thick) hinge over.

thanks for your detailed analysis and comments!

The wood fibers run vertically, and since you can look straight down and see nothing but saw cut, you can see you completely cut the hinge off. If you use stump shot on anything, you need to take in account of the material being undercut below you. You basically turned your notch into a snap cut, with no hinge at all. Your biggest problem was the fact that you decided to nip, not knowing what you were doing, and cut the tree completely free.

Moving forward, if you insist on doing so, i feel that you should bore cut your hinges, no matter the lean. This way you can take forever, and get the hinge absolutely perfect. With these new pictures, it seems you might have had a slight amount of extra hinge, but not nearly what we originally thought. By bore cutting first, you can take your time to get the hinge right before committing. I would not use stump shot either, because stump shot is handy when felling and the top will contact other trees, possibly knocking the tree backwards, towards you. You need to not attempt doing that.

Another trick I use when pulling trees solo (which you need to not do ever again, seriously) is to use a snap cut for my release, so i have time to go and crank the tree over.

Finally, i have to say this again: go work for someone else, or give this up. You signature says you are doing this for hire, and goes so far as saying you want to be a CA. While both are admirable goals, you haven't paid your dues at all. By doing this for hire, you are disrespecting your customers and the fellow tree guys in the area that have learned the trade. You can do this for free for yourself, practice climbing if you wish, but you aren't ready to go in business doing this yet.

Kyle, thanks a lot for your feedback!

Yes... the bore cut... I was using this method all the time, and with much more consistent results ...not always 100% even... but yes, it allows one to take all the time needed to carefully create the hinge...... I stopped using it on non-forward leaners because I wanted to learn to cut the back cut the "real" way.... but you are exactly right, much easier to get consistent results. Thanks!

This. Even if it's just a few months, I'll bet you learn tons. I wish you were closer by, I'd meet you on some jobs. I'd like to see you succeed and I'm not trying to scare or shame you away from this work. There's usually plenty of work out there for everyone, but you can't keep winging it. Mistakes will not always leave you capable of trying again next time, they can change your life in an instant.

Thanks a lot, Johnny! I really appreciate that, that would be great!

Yes, Kyle, Johnny, what you say are words of wisdom.... I have that on my radar to find someone to work with. thanks.

 

[Mick!]

You. Didn’t. Have. Enough. Pull.

 

[MasterBlaster]

 

[rfwoody]

Robert, at every point when your three main felling cuts were not properly formed, you could have easily repaired the mistake. Every one of them. Slow down and fix that crap before proceeding.

Assuming you know what you are striving for in the first place. Of that I remain unconvinced, elsewise why did you continue???

And I will say again how admirable it is that you can take my admittedly harsh criticism with equanimity and grace. Kudos there, sir.

Mr. Burnham, this is a life and death issue.... my best chance of surviving is to try to put myself out there for public scrutiny....try to be humble and listen to those who know more than me.... and especially those with the years of experience, like yourself, who have earned a place of stature in this profession ---- very valuable!

Your post from a few days ago gave me direction and encouragement.... GOT TO GET THE FELLING CUTS RIGHT!!!!

IF this
THEN CONTINUE

IF not
then QUIT!

I have learned a lot and seemed to have improved in that direction since then.

thanks again.

 

[Marc-Antoine]

please, What do you mean by "double [triple?] over your rope for more pull-strength"? ... are you talking about 2:1 or 3:1 MA ... or something different. Thanks.

That isn't a MA here. If you judge your rope not strong enough to be in the safety margin for the intended task, an easy way is to fold the rope in 2 and use this doubled rope as if it was one plain rope. Two times stronger, but also two times shorter. An important point is to rig that with the same load on both parts (less a concern with a stretchy rope tough).
If you need a MA to get enough force, the doubled rope has to go throw the set of pulleys the same way as if it wasn't folded.

The rope can be folded in 3 or 4, but it becomes very short and equalizing the loads between the legs begins to be really tricky.