Pecan Hinge Failure -- what did I miscalculate?

[Jonny]

I guess I just wanna know if there was constant tension in that rope.
So set the line in the tree. Facecut/ notch. Tension the line.Backcut. Then more tension if needed... How do you know if you need more tension on the line? I'd know if it started pinching my bar. That might be hard to read if you're forcing the backcut wider with wedges.
When he was hammering those wedges, he should've been adding tension to the line.

 

[Burnham]

I think some of y'all are overcomplicating this little fell. Robert screwed the pooch on his face depth and orientation, then compounded it with his equally poorly oriented back cut. All the rest was just chump change leading to the inevitable. I believe if he'd gotten the first three cuts right, all would have been well. Assuming he didn't read the back lean incredibly poorly...not a wise assumption, I'll give that for sure.

I think I'm being rather an ass to our friend Robert. I'd better subside, ask forgiveness, and slink away to my stool at the end of the bar .

 

[Jonny]

He seems pretty receptive of criticism and it's all respectful and polite.
That takes balls to start a thread like this, while knowing nobody is going to say anything good. I still say you need some time with a production tree crew to learn what you think you already know.
Logging videos of 200' fir timber fallers is teaching you jackshit about 50' side heavy pecans in between homes and powerlines.

 

[Stumpshot]

I too really appreciate Robert's humility and desire for education.

Just in case you missed mine

No problem, it'll buff out!
Is that the new "sloped back" wrap handles I've heard so much about? And aerodynamic power heads that Stihl is promoting?

 

[SeanKroll]

How tight is a D String?

Specifically, what is 'nipping'? You started nipping. You need to cut intentionally and accurately.


Any you had a tractor their that would have pushed the thing right over.

 

[Mick!]

Slap your ugly cut in, then give me enough power.



Robert didn't use enough power.

That’s the bones of it.

 

[SkwerI]

Murphy's Bobcat would have pulled it over!

 

[theTreeSpyder]

Bobcat push/lift/rotation might have been able to bulldog thru/over the front step blockage i think.
>>downward rope angle pull by bobcat would be pulling down into lock of step, lift up some and over on rotation perhaps could work.
.
As always and all ways fell to the balanced orchestration of pulls and pushes, tensions/compressions.
.
Hinge flap serving to open relief is simple machine really, but must deploy correctly.

 

[murphy4trees]

Murphy's Bobcat would have pulled it over!

Every time...


THrow everything to your advantage... that's a mindset... even on what looks like an easy tree....

So the mistakes all compound...

I ALWAYS set a high pull line... Throwline if possible, climb and set by hand if not well set otherwise...

Then set up the "best" pulling system... in this case NOT 3:1 ma using the truck as a ground anchor... you had other anchor trees available.. Use one as a ground anchor, set up pull line from tree, near 1/2 way to anchors install a pulley on the end of pull line... secondary line anchored on tree, thru pulley, and back to truck... Giving a 2:! MA wit the truck pulling power.. Pre-tension pull line and watch the top of the tree bend enough to be sure you have it... then start the notch... about 1/2 way through the diameter (leaving the hinge in the widest part of the trunk)...

With that set up, you could have put that tree down with a 2-3" hinge.. easily... cut hinge up to your pre-set marks and then moved to the truck and step on gas, tree is 100% yours

I didn;t read the whole thread, but I AM sure you got plenty of feedback on the notch and back cut.... Shallow notch no optimal here, it still would have worked with a good back cut and enough pulling power.... off level back cut, not optimal, but would have worked as above...

Optimally the back cut would have been at level with the notch or at most 1/2" higher. You don;t need stump shot on this tree....

Lastly the caution would be to NEVER over cut your back cut... The bypass left no fibers in tact to hold .... If you get a little too far into the back cut, stop and get more pulling power

Wishing you well in all things...

 

[stig]

Every time...


THrow everything to your advantage... that's a mindset... even on what looks like an easy tree....

We think of that as the " Always wearing both belt and suspenders" mindset.

Anything I cut near costly obstacles, I adher to that.
In the woods, not so much.

 

[Mick!]

I took out power lines a few years back, poor cutting sent a poplar the wrong way.

The memory of the embarrassment, the sight of the sparks and the sneering of the power company workers arriving like a small army stays with me on every risky fell.

Wedges, ropes, loader, winch, whatever it takes to go home without catastrophe.

As Butch says, enough power would have negated the poor cut on this job, plus going solo means you couldn’t apply pull whilst cutting.

 

[SeanKroll]

If you redirect the rope back to the cutting area, with the maasdam anchored separately, but near the victim tree, you can cut and pull, cut and pull from the same area.


Cut off your bark. You will see splitting early on if pulling too hard for the hinge.


I left slightly too much hinge on a back-leaning alder, hand pulled with about 2:1. It stood up ok, but took a bit more pulling to get it over. Started to split it, right next to the shed.
Belt and brace approach there would have included strapping the tree above and below the facecut. I think I posted it in the work pics thread.

 

[Bermy]

Coming in late here...

My first thought with the first picture was...that's a lot of branches on the back side, then saw the lean of the tree and it compounded.
All been said already:
Hinge was too thick (which can be thinned up to start the fall, but only to a predetermined point, once you reach that point you have to stop and try something else)
Rope too low
Going back to 'nip' was your final undoing, you cut through anything that was going to hold.

Just this week I had some small trees to fell at the private school, the gardeners decided they were too big for them and too risky.
They were 2' from a fence, public road on the other side of the fence, and back lean towards fence and road, couple of larger branches off to one side. Deeply fissured at the base, ants boiling out of the fissures...
I put in a high pull line, 3:1, placed my wedges and axe at the base...got the guys to put tension...looked at it again and thought...Nah, nope.

I climbed it, with the intent to cut off the two larger branches that were favouring the side and back lean, on the way up I discovered a few small branches tangled in the adjacent tree, I hadn't seen them clearly from the ground. I dealt with all of them, came back down and felled the tree with no further issues.
Face cut, half a back cut, place a wedge, bang it in, finish back cut with guys pulling rope...over it went.
Then the ants came out...OMG I have never SEEN so many ants, I think they had been nesting there for a decade!

All to say, always err on the side of caution, people may not understand why you take extra time to set things up, but at the end of the day it's YOU at the stump.

 

[rfwoody]

I think some of y'all are overcomplicating this little fell. Robert screwed the pooch on his face depth and orientation, then compounded it with his equally poorly oriented back cut. All the rest was just chump change leading to the inevitable. I believe if he'd gotten the first three cuts right, all would have been well. Assuming he didn't read the back lean incredibly poorly...not a wise assumption, I'll give that for sure.

I think I'm being rather an ass to our friend Robert. I'd better subside, ask forgiveness, and slink away to my stool at the end of the bar .

haha, in the middle of going through and reading/digesting what everyone has kindly shared with me their unvarnished thoughts and experiences....

But I got a big grin and a chuckle when I read this one and had to respond.

Mr. Burnham (and All), thanks a lot for dishing out the medicine such a situation deserves. (and for all the valuable diagnoses and recommendations). <now going back to reading>

==> CUT BARK OFF SIDES OF HINGE TO GIVE CLEAR VIEW OF HINGE (per Sean and others) --- this I forgot to do... I might have seen more clearly how small I had cut my hinge to.

Kyle ==> thanks a lot for that physics lesson! ... I believe I do understand ... But wouldn't C and D both be positive x and y and F negative x and y (?) .... just to make sure I'm understanding and remembering from Algebra, Physics, etc. (i.e. isn't upper, right quadrant +x and +y) ?

Kenny ==> I wish I could figure out every word/thought in your posts! ... have read a few times each...
...for what it's worth.... I will plan on cutting the end off the stem and reposition and photo it to give better
... also.... I had not considered that the dutchman could have hung it up like that.... need to study the pictures more.

Sean and All ==> Thanks for sharing your valuable experience and skill!

* My 3 strand Samson rigging rope was so stretched by my truck pulling it ---- I feared it would break (i.e. thinking 5:1 safe working load for rigging).
* I have a Maasdam but didn't think I would need it.
* My lack of skills notwithstanding --- I totally underestimated that small tree ... the force it would take to make it go over.
...and along with that I underestimated the rigging power/limits I would need.

If I was going to reduce the hinge (original thick hinge might have been 15% of diameter(?)) --- I should have just cut more off the back (plunge behind the notch, destroying the wedges) -- instead of trying to preserve my wedges by "nipping" off the front.

Need to try to find somebody to work with.... someone with experience who has high regard for safe tree working practices.

 

[Altissimus]

As far as falling cuts , to get good it takes lots and lots of them in non critical situations to gain the accuracy you need in critical ones.

 

[Nutball]

Also coming in late. So, yea you about cut the hinge off, but what I quickly noticed was how the was a wee bit of under cut on the face, and the hinge was able to just split, so you lost a lot of tension holding fibers when the back cut went over the over deep bottom face cut.

 

[sotc]

The higher pulling point should have easily tipped the tree into the lay. A little deeper on the face, a little skinnier on the hinge, back cut a little lower and pulling point higher and you wouldn't have needed the truck. That said, I would have likely pole sawed a few branches off the back side and if it was pulling hard, I would have gutted the hinge rather than cutting it off. The higher the pull rope the easier to "tip" the tree. The lower the line, the more you're trying to pull the butt forward off the stump and the less "tipping" action.

 

[pantheraba]

Yep..that "pulling the butt forward off the stump" gives me the Willies (sorry Willie!!!). I have not seen it happen but the first time someone described that it COULD happen I got a bad feeling in my stomach.

I remember seeing my uncle back in the 70's hook a chain to his tractor and put it about arm's reach high on a big (at least 70 foot) pine right by his house. I don't remember all the details of how he cut the tree but he got it down safely like farmer's usually do stuff. He did some kind of chainsaw cuts and then pulled it with the tractor.

But it was a prime candidate for him pulling that tree from the bottom off the stump before the top started tipping. I didn't know enough to tell him it was possible...he probably would have just smiled at this city boy/nephew and kept on anyway.

 

[theTreeSpyder]

As Burnham says face is messed up to start; to me seems Dutch close stopped fold.
>>Face cut to me is removing wedge, that is like removing a chock to roll tire forward, provide easy path
>>other factors too, but that is main one to me.
.
Face close can be hard enough that adding more pull could have invited barber chair (possibly)
>>i think of barber chair as wanting to lunge forward but can't from such a Dutch close, and 'over ruling the constitution of the spar' the internal fight causes split decision.
.
To me on a fair day, plenty of wedge and rope on this,
and no hard side lean towards actual fall
Very large leveraged resistance against actual fall until last piece cut on far side of fall, taking away leverage against fall
Hinge was very narrow to target before that moment, very little hinge leverage /if any at all against target fall with 3xTruck x 15 foot lever + wedges
>>like chock not removed from in front of tire, roll forward was impeded
.
i'm not sure more /higher rope leverage could have bull dogged it out
On that thin of a hinge, i'm pretty sure could have pulled easily as is with better face, wedges as a safety stop more depending on rope.
.
Front and back paths across hinge to target and backfall blocked, remaining tuft of fibers was last hold,
functioned as leveraged resistance against falling directly opposite actual fall, just like last tuft of fibers cut was leverage against actual fall
>>each of the final fiber tufts on opposing sides where leveraged resistance to their opposite sides,but hinges to their own sides.
>>peeled down on final cut to taking resistance away from actual fall, and leaving hinge on actual fall side.
>>this final tuff was leverage against falling opposite way, wedges and backcut kept from going opposite target, target was blocked
>>could only fall as did>>unless as majority say could have bull dogged thru impedance of face Dutchman
Was down to 2 tufts on opposing sides as hinge, should have rolled forward with all those pulls if could.
.
i simply look for more easy grace from the machinery as signature that is flowing correctly.

.

How could fold forward NOT be path of least resistance to easy fall otherwise?

 

[Marc-Antoine]

Now, I'm confused. I don't recognize all the story and explanations in the stump's pics.

In the two first pics of the stump (before fall and with the wedges already in place), on both sides the notch seems pretty clean. I can't see any evidence of a dutchman at the corners. The back cut is nice too (except the unlevel) ending precisely at the scribed lines.

In the two pics of the stump after the fall, now I can see a dutchman on the butt, full width. But I'd say that it came here with the front hinge nipping.
Second point, the back cut ends no longer at the scribed lines, but it goes beyond them, like half way of the initial hinge. The cut looks more messy in this part and there are some plastic shavings from the wedges. The wedges are heavily indented, as they were in the way of boring the hinge's back. So, for me, it looks like the nipping of the hinge occurred on both its sides.
But what do I know ...

 

[SkwerI]

^ Sounds like we have a regular Sherlock Holmes here.

 

[MasterBlaster]

 

[Nutball]

 

[theTreeSpyder]

^ Sounds like we have a regular Sherlock Holmes here.

Wow,
i must need a brake,
thought that was the idea;
guess we are done then!

 

[stig]

Yup, no more stump forensics.

Brian, you can be such an asshole at times.
Even more than myself.