Paradise California / Camp FIre
- Thread starter candoarms
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BlackSmith
Uncivil
“Apparently it is nearly impossible to get permission to remove a tree from a person's personal property.”
Permission from who?
Permission from who?
candoarms
TreeHouser
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #28
Blacksmith,
That was my response, as well. Permission? From who? Why?
Well, as the story goes, there are layers upon layers of laws and regulations that start at the State, followed by County, township, city, and homeowners associations, or Property Owners Associations.
To have a tree removed, a person must file for a permit. The cost of the permit is 500 dollars. That money does not go toward the removal of the tree. The permit fee is used to pay the arborist who comes out to inspect the tree. If the tree is healthy and has no obvious defects, the arborist is not permitted to issue a removal order.
To get a around this, homeowners are taking steps that will kill the tree. Removing a dead tree is simple. Getting a permit to remove a dead tree is easy as pie. But, the homeowner is not permitted to physically harm the tree, such as by girdling it. The tree can be wrapped with cable and chains, then allow the tree to overgrow it, thereby killing itself.
The State of California is a true work of art. I've never been in such a hurry to leave a place.
Joel
That was my response, as well. Permission? From who? Why?
Well, as the story goes, there are layers upon layers of laws and regulations that start at the State, followed by County, township, city, and homeowners associations, or Property Owners Associations.
To have a tree removed, a person must file for a permit. The cost of the permit is 500 dollars. That money does not go toward the removal of the tree. The permit fee is used to pay the arborist who comes out to inspect the tree. If the tree is healthy and has no obvious defects, the arborist is not permitted to issue a removal order.
To get a around this, homeowners are taking steps that will kill the tree. Removing a dead tree is simple. Getting a permit to remove a dead tree is easy as pie. But, the homeowner is not permitted to physically harm the tree, such as by girdling it. The tree can be wrapped with cable and chains, then allow the tree to overgrow it, thereby killing itself.
The State of California is a true work of art. I've never been in such a hurry to leave a place.
Joel
candoarms
TreeHouser
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #30
Here's the FAQ page from the Paradise Pines Property Owners Association.
http://www.paradisepines.org/
Q. My insurance company says all of the trees from my burned out property need to be removed. Do I still need to get a permit?
A. Yes. You will still need to obtain a permit. Permits for dead trees are free. Be prepared to present the letter from your insurance provider.
It goes on and on. Incredible.
Joel
http://www.paradisepines.org/
Q. My insurance company says all of the trees from my burned out property need to be removed. Do I still need to get a permit?
A. Yes. You will still need to obtain a permit. Permits for dead trees are free. Be prepared to present the letter from your insurance provider.
It goes on and on. Incredible.
Joel
candoarms
TreeHouser
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #31
Cory,
Apparently the Board of Directors at the Paradise Pines Property Owners Association must have been inundated with tree removal permit applications, as they voted last week to remove the requirement to get a permit before having any dead trees taken out.
This is noted at the top of the FAQ page in BOLD GREEN LETTERS.
Joel
Apparently the Board of Directors at the Paradise Pines Property Owners Association must have been inundated with tree removal permit applications, as they voted last week to remove the requirement to get a permit before having any dead trees taken out.
This is noted at the top of the FAQ page in BOLD GREEN LETTERS.
Joel
BlackSmith
Uncivil
“I've never been in such a hurry to leave a place.“
I hear that a lot.
I hear that a lot.
candoarms
TreeHouser
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #33
Blacksmith,
I'm known for having a pretty good sense of humor. Apparently this isn't a trait that is sought after any longer these days.
When looking forward to a day off from work while serving out in Paradise, a friend asked me at meal time, "What would you like to do on your day off?" I replied, "I'd like to go see the Redwoods. I've already seen all the black ones".
I guess that wasn't the proper thing to say. I've never received so much negative feedback in my entire life. "OK OK....I take it all back.....but that doesn't change the fact that the trees around here are all black." I guess they didn't like that comment either.
Sour asses. Lighten up. I didn't burn the forest. I had nothing to do with it.
Joel
I'm known for having a pretty good sense of humor. Apparently this isn't a trait that is sought after any longer these days.
When looking forward to a day off from work while serving out in Paradise, a friend asked me at meal time, "What would you like to do on your day off?" I replied, "I'd like to go see the Redwoods. I've already seen all the black ones".
I guess that wasn't the proper thing to say. I've never received so much negative feedback in my entire life. "OK OK....I take it all back.....but that doesn't change the fact that the trees around here are all black." I guess they didn't like that comment either.
Sour asses. Lighten up. I didn't burn the forest. I had nothing to do with it.
Joel
MasterBlaster
Administrator Emeritus
No shit!
kiteflyingeek
Treehouser
a) thanks for working on that & sharing it with us.
b) California will regulate itself to death, apparently.
c) that's horrible that your co-workers didn't like your bad sense of humor. I think it's great!!
--andrew
b) California will regulate itself to death, apparently.
c) that's horrible that your co-workers didn't like your bad sense of humor. I think it's great!!
--andrew
BlackSmith
Uncivil
“I've never received so much negative feedback in my entire life.”
Demographics be a bitch yo...
Demographics be a bitch yo...
SeanKroll
Treehouser
You made me chuckle loudly!!
CurSedVoyce
California Hillbilly
When I was in LTO class here in .CA, you could see by the regulations on just the state level how harvesting was going to be a logistics nightmare. That, and those very regs along with preservation groups is what killed the logging infrastructure to deal with forest issues. Fires, dead and dying, forest management, selective harvesting.
And all that wood up there in ROW is worthless with out permit from CDF and a harvest plan. Can't go to mill with out it. So, worthless.
See if I can post the Regs link.
I see they are making some exemption for post fire areas. ROW crews are not loggers though. Logs cut to small etc....
Here is the link. The whole book is in there...
http://calfire.ca.gov/resource_mgt/resource_mgt_forestpractice
And all that wood up there in ROW is worthless with out permit from CDF and a harvest plan. Can't go to mill with out it. So, worthless.
See if I can post the Regs link.
I see they are making some exemption for post fire areas. ROW crews are not loggers though. Logs cut to small etc....
Here is the link. The whole book is in there...
http://calfire.ca.gov/resource_mgt/resource_mgt_forestpractice
candoarms
TreeHouser
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #40
CurSedVoyce,
Many thanks for your assistance in linking the facts to the stories I've been hearing over the past two months. It's nice to see the laws in writing. That's awesome material to have. Sometimes the laws seem so ridiculous that they don't seem possible.....but they really do exist.
Joel
Many thanks for your assistance in linking the facts to the stories I've been hearing over the past two months. It's nice to see the laws in writing. That's awesome material to have. Sometimes the laws seem so ridiculous that they don't seem possible.....but they really do exist.
Joel
candoarms
TreeHouser
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #41
CurSedVoyce,
From the link you provided above..........
"The Timber Harvesting Plan (THP) is the environmental review documents submitted by landowners to CAL FIRE outlining what timber he or she wants to harvest, how it will be harvested, and the steps that will be taken to prevent damage to the environment. THPs are prepared by Registered Professional Foresters (RPFs) who are licensed to prepare these comprehensive, detailed plans. THPs can range from about 100 pages to more than 500 pages."
Let us not forget about that little red legged frog that we were warned not to step on. Never mind that some 200 square miles of land just burned up. I'm sure those little froggies came through that just fine.
Joel
From the link you provided above..........
"The Timber Harvesting Plan (THP) is the environmental review documents submitted by landowners to CAL FIRE outlining what timber he or she wants to harvest, how it will be harvested, and the steps that will be taken to prevent damage to the environment. THPs are prepared by Registered Professional Foresters (RPFs) who are licensed to prepare these comprehensive, detailed plans. THPs can range from about 100 pages to more than 500 pages."
Let us not forget about that little red legged frog that we were warned not to step on. Never mind that some 200 square miles of land just burned up. I'm sure those little froggies came through that just fine.
Joel
CurSedVoyce
California Hillbilly
Owls, frog's, beetles...... there is quite a list.
Then the expense of documentation.... studies.
Just a thought Joel, if you get a chance.. The Roseville campus is not all that far from Paradise. If you go back out, look up the LTO class. Couple days and about 45.00 just outside Sacramento. Worth the info. And get the book with some quick references.
Then the expense of documentation.... studies.
Just a thought Joel, if you get a chance.. The Roseville campus is not all that far from Paradise. If you go back out, look up the LTO class. Couple days and about 45.00 just outside Sacramento. Worth the info. And get the book with some quick references.
candoarms
TreeHouser
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #43
CurSedVoyce,
Many thanks for the fantastic info. I don't know that I'll be going back. PG&E has filed for bankruptcy and we were all promptly dismissed from the project. I have no idea who is going to resume the effort. Maybe we'll get called back, but I highly doubt it.
At any rate, the LTO class sounds very interesting. I'm a certified arborist who runs a tree care company here in North Dakota. I also serve as the city forester for my little home town of Cando, ND. I'm working on getting my ISA Municipal Specialist qualification. Becoming a Licensed Timber Operator might not be a bad thing.
I truly appreciate your input and assistance.
Joel
Many thanks for the fantastic info. I don't know that I'll be going back. PG&E has filed for bankruptcy and we were all promptly dismissed from the project. I have no idea who is going to resume the effort. Maybe we'll get called back, but I highly doubt it.
At any rate, the LTO class sounds very interesting. I'm a certified arborist who runs a tree care company here in North Dakota. I also serve as the city forester for my little home town of Cando, ND. I'm working on getting my ISA Municipal Specialist qualification. Becoming a Licensed Timber Operator might not be a bad thing.
I truly appreciate your input and assistance.
Joel
CurSedVoyce
California Hillbilly
Good for writing permits anyway..
Your welcome Joel .
Your welcome Joel .
Mrs.B
Treehouser
Very interesting thread, Joel. I hope you continue to share your insights with us. Unfortunately, Paradise is only one of many cities in California that face the same fate. California is overpopulated and everyone wants to live in the woods to escape. The very high temperatures in the summer and extreme low humidity lead to drought conditions, and we always have those high winds in the fall. It's all a perfect scenario for fire. Kudos to the fire chief who is looking for answers from the real pros. No doubt he faces unsurmountable bureaucracy and red tape.
I hope you got to see the Redwoods on your day off!
I hope you got to see the Redwoods on your day off!
candoarms
TreeHouser
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #46
Mrs. B,
I was just one person in a group of about 100 certified arborists who were called in to assist with the Camp Fire remediation efforts. The entire project was headed up by PG&E, with the primary goal being to restore electrical and gas service to those homes that survived the fire.
Our first goal was to label the trees by order of priority. We did this much along the same methods used by medical teams following a major pile up on the interstate. Those trees that posed an immediate threat to life or property were labeled P1...or PRIORITY ONE. Trees that were hindering the power restoration efforts were labeled "P2". Trees that posed no threat to the public, but would have to be removed prior to any New Construction were labeled "NC".
PG&E established the guidelines that we were to follow. Any vegetation that fell within 16 feet of the centerline of the power pole, to either side, was to be entirely removed. Any tree over 4" in diameter that was located outside of that measurement, but was still encroaching on the power lines, would be marked for future action.
The certified arborists would walk the areas to determine if the work was accomplished properly, or to determine if the work had even been started. Needless to say, the tree crews working the project weren't any too concerned about making proper pruning cuts. Many trees were butchered. There is going to be a heap of restoration work to do once the butchers leave town.
We had many long discussions regarding the haphazard methods used by the tree pruning crews. There were conflicting stories regarding change of plans in mid-stream, and different directives being issued as the project advanced. I can't blame the tree crews for all of these pruning failures, but the blame has to placed somewhere. Usually the guy with the saw in his hand gets blamed for making a poor pruning cut. That's the way the ball bounces.
I left Paradise thinking that the whole city had been lost to a fire and that it all could have been prevented. Start by simply thinning the forest. Some of those yards had 30 trees in the front yard alone! And these are not little trees! Maintain a clear and clean forest floor within city limits. Establish fire breaks around the city limits to provide fire fighters with a work zone and to provide time and space for residents to escape.
It's easy to say now......I know....but other cities need to begin taking action. In an effort to save all of those trees from man's saws, the people of Paradise lost them all to nature's fury.
Joel
I was just one person in a group of about 100 certified arborists who were called in to assist with the Camp Fire remediation efforts. The entire project was headed up by PG&E, with the primary goal being to restore electrical and gas service to those homes that survived the fire.
Our first goal was to label the trees by order of priority. We did this much along the same methods used by medical teams following a major pile up on the interstate. Those trees that posed an immediate threat to life or property were labeled P1...or PRIORITY ONE. Trees that were hindering the power restoration efforts were labeled "P2". Trees that posed no threat to the public, but would have to be removed prior to any New Construction were labeled "NC".
PG&E established the guidelines that we were to follow. Any vegetation that fell within 16 feet of the centerline of the power pole, to either side, was to be entirely removed. Any tree over 4" in diameter that was located outside of that measurement, but was still encroaching on the power lines, would be marked for future action.
The certified arborists would walk the areas to determine if the work was accomplished properly, or to determine if the work had even been started. Needless to say, the tree crews working the project weren't any too concerned about making proper pruning cuts. Many trees were butchered. There is going to be a heap of restoration work to do once the butchers leave town.
We had many long discussions regarding the haphazard methods used by the tree pruning crews. There were conflicting stories regarding change of plans in mid-stream, and different directives being issued as the project advanced. I can't blame the tree crews for all of these pruning failures, but the blame has to placed somewhere. Usually the guy with the saw in his hand gets blamed for making a poor pruning cut. That's the way the ball bounces.
I left Paradise thinking that the whole city had been lost to a fire and that it all could have been prevented. Start by simply thinning the forest. Some of those yards had 30 trees in the front yard alone! And these are not little trees! Maintain a clear and clean forest floor within city limits. Establish fire breaks around the city limits to provide fire fighters with a work zone and to provide time and space for residents to escape.
It's easy to say now......I know....but other cities need to begin taking action. In an effort to save all of those trees from man's saws, the people of Paradise lost them all to nature's fury.
Joel
CurSedVoyce
California Hillbilly
Wild land interface is a difficult task. A LOT of obticles to over come to help it be safer. Sad it takes catastrophes like these to get the idea of becoming proactive. Of course it all takes money, and there is just not enough. There will be more of these disasters while they whittle away at the problem. Trying to undue 100 years of bad decisions and policy.
Powerful irony
Rustykfd
NewB
Add to the irony the fact that forest fire suppression started so those trees could be saved for commercial use. Now we've screwed up the natural fire cycle in the forest so bad and we aren't harvesting enough. Now the forests are full of litter (natural litter), the roads aren't being maintained by the loggers so the firefighters can't gain access as quickly, nor do we have roads/trails to work from for containment. We have continuous fuels from the forest floor to the top of the canopy with no natural separation as would have occurred with the natural fire cycle. It's all frigged up. It's going to take a very long time to fix. We are going to continue to have devastating fires. This is the reality that will likely exist for our lifetimes.
CurSedVoyce
California Hillbilly
Spot on Rusty.
And for the global warming folks, yes, warmer weather trends play into the perfect storm. No one cause, no one type fix.
And for the global warming folks, yes, warmer weather trends play into the perfect storm. No one cause, no one type fix.
