my SRT rig

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You should never attach a DdRT system to a ascender. If you shockload the system the ascender can sever the SRT line. Shockloading is as easy as slipping off a branchwalk.

Much better to tie an alpine butterfly in the SRT line and anchor off that.

Again, bear in mind with a conventional SRT line setup, anchored at the base of the tree, there are serious risks to consider when using an inline anchor. Doubled load on anchor point, rope between anchor point and tie-off getting damaged, and any limbs you cut getting caught in the SRT line. Any of those is reason enough to isolate the anchor point IMO.
 
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  • #27
No Peter, i meant when you are working off DdRT, you rely on just your hitch, kinda' like when changing over to a descent in an emergency off SRT, for a short time, you are relying on the handled ascender to hold you ;) just using one as a metaphor for the other.
 
Widow Shooter said:
kinda' like when changing over to a descent in an emergency off SRT, for a short time, you are relying on the handled ascender to hold you ;) just using one as a metaphor for the other.
Click to expand...

Uhhhhh NO... You should not be... There should be a back up hitch or ascender at play in the set up already and that is what you would be hanging from... Or your flip line.
 
Peter said:
You should never attach a DdRT system to a ascender. If you shockload the system the ascender can sever the SRT line. Shockloading is as easy as slipping off a branchwalk.
.
Click to expand...

Read my post again.
I specifically pointed out that I always back-up the ascender.
 
I hang off a single ascender sometimes, the CMI EXP Arborist insures a good bit more confidence. I'm on a single attachment lots of the time. DdRT uses a single attachment, a harness connection is a single attachment, friction saver, the rope itself... lots of single attachment links in the chain... and every one is stronger than some of the TIPs I see climbers use.

I backup my ascender with cords but its the tether I'm most concerned about, not the device.
 
Good point, Chip. We always have to look at every link in the entire life support chain rather than getting too hung up on one particular link. IMO if it is the weak link and it is that unsafe then either eliminate it or replace it with something you can trust.
 
As long as the BU is still above the severed point .. you should be ok..
Personally... I am tied into the BU as I have a toothed handled ascender. I use cord for BU. As for my handled ascender.. it is only there as an assist to climb the rope as would be the pantin. I use a straight forward rope walker set up. My cord is what I hang from. If I am working off SRT, I set my fig 8 into the system and rap down to my work accordingly.. As Stig described with the handled ascender disengaged. If I am working the whole tree. I just switch over to Ddrt at my TIP and get to work. I often work both systems with arbormaster these days. That or PI. Occasionally true blue. No need to drag another line up. I don't do a lot of solo anyway.. So my entry line can be taken off belay by my ground crew.
 
It's nice to see posts from people who have assessed and understand there systems. SRT is an invaluable tool for me, but like Peter I am sceptical of people using a dDrt from it using any kind of cam or toothed ascender. A simple knot i.e. alpine butterfly removes any issues.

I am using a cinch currently in my system to allow decent. What are others using?
 
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  • #36
Okay, so tell me again how hanging from a toothed hand ascender is any different than hanging from a hitch?

the VT attached to your bridge is not backed up, unless you are cutting and are lanyarded on right?

unless you climb with the lanyard constantly clipped in as you move, and i know I don't ;)

so pray tell? how is it different than relying on a VT to keep your ass aloft? :)
 
Because most (if not all) toothed ascenders have shown themselves to be capable of severing the host line well below the 5000 lb minimum breaking strength. Going strictly by memory (which is a scary thought) I seem to remember reports of ropes being severed in the 2500-3500 lb load range, some as low as 1800 lbs. These levels are easily reached in a shock loading situation.
 
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  • #39
really? wow, seem pretty unlikely to me bra'...unless the line was so frayed that you should not be on it anyways, or weighed 300 pounds and fell 20 feet ;)

c'mon, gotta do better than that man ;)
 
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  • #40
I'm talking about hanging off it for the 5 seconds it takes to get your f-8 on the line .
 
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  • #42
No, i meant if i were ascending SRT, had to switch over to an f-8 and come out before reaching my TIP, and for practicing SRT.

I'm either going to set my DRT line ahead of time and switch over , or take it with me and switch after I get to my TIP and lanyarded in :)

that short time when you have to release the foot ascender to get the 8 in and in that period, would be hanging from the hand ascender.
 
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  • #43
I'm Indian Brent, we don't fall :)
 
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  • #44
yeah man, I don't fall, least not in trees, if it goes, I'm riding it down and that isn't falling, it is 'bark-surfing" man :)
 
Widow Shooter said:
really? wow, seem pretty unlikely to me bra'...unless the line was so frayed that you should not be on it anyways, or weighed 300 pounds and fell 20 feet ;)

c'mon, gotta do better than that man ;)
Click to expand...

You would be surprised. The cutting ability of a toothed ascender on traditionally static rope (- kernmantle usually) will cut the sheath with a fall of less than body
length, which is easy during tree work. Especially when you consider the increased loading using a dDrt system of
f it
 
Widow Shooter said:
yeah man, I don't fall, least not in trees, if it goes, I'm riding it down and that isn't falling, it is 'bark-surfing" man :)
Click to expand...

Oh no, make no mistake... it's falling, I have experience. :O

And Cary, Pete and Peter are taliking about running your DdRT TIP of the ascent line 'Floating False Croatch' or 'Secret Weapon' style. If a branch snapped and you fell hard it could easily strip the cover or sever the rope... best case you'd never be able to trust the rope again.
Cool thing is, like Pete said, you just run the FFC off the Alpine butterflies. I've done it using the backup cords on my ascenders (disengaged) or by pushing a prusik with rings above the frames and a marline spike below. Meh, useful sometimes.
 
Having re-read the whole thread, I can see where there may have been some confusion.

Stig was talking about an emergency descent method in post #9. Even so, it is still possible to shock load the ascender, say your hitch binds during a rapid descent for instance. Even if the rope isnt severed it will still be damaged, and who wants to ruin an expensive access line for one bail out descent?

Pete and I were talking about an inline anchor system, ie attaching your DdRT system directly to the access line (be it footlock or SRT), and going to work the tree while only partially ascending the access line, taking advantage of the high anchor point without having to go all the way up.
 
okay to refer to earlier comment of 300 lbs falling for 20 seconds, the force on the rope would be..58643 lbs, and if a 180 lb person fell for 2 seconds the force on your rope, or bingers TIP ect is 3535 lbs. although in a 20 second fall i guess you hit terminal velocity. it takes 1 second to fall 32.2 feet, at that time you weigh theoretically 1767 lbs. sure i believe a toothed cam might sever a rope at any of these scenarios, so might a VT or Prusik, certainly permanently damage the rope..most climbing equipment is rated for only a few falls of less than a second, or one hard fall. something to look into. any thoughts on calculating falling force?
 
I like this one :)
<iframe title="YouTube video player" class="youtube-player" type="text/html" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/KGGlEQNRNjY" frameborder="0" allowFullScreen></iframe>
 
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