How do you align a diagonal?

[sawinredneck]

I went to take pics of this tree today, but the 8' high snow bank piled around it didn't really work well with what I'm dealing with! Maybe next week!

 

[forestryworks]

Don't forget to use your sights so you know when to stop cutting!

 

[Jed]

Thanks forestryworks: Funny how the simplest advice that you would think no one would ever forget can get overlooked in the heat of the moment. Only about a week ago, I got to fall a large Lombardy poplar that I had to cut from both sides. My idea for the back cut was to bore partway through so that I would be sure to have my wood cut up on the dangerous side of the trunk. Then I was going to dog around to the safe side to finish the fall. So I bored in well behind the hinge, but as I started to cut up to it, I forgot about my gunning target, and accidentally cut up way to much wood with the tip of the bar toward the center of the hinge--typical beginner mistake.

To help the thread evolve, I might ask how you guys go about cutting from both sides. I always want to mark my corners, but it irritates my forman because it "takes too much time." Yeah right--we always finish up way early anyway. Do you guys mark your corners when your bar doesn't reach through? How do you guys do it?

 

[stig]

Marking corners is a rookie tecnique IMO.
When I start apprentices up, I'll have them do it, but then I'll wean them of it as soon as possible.

One thing, though, my way of doing things is based on the fact that for 6 months of the year I get paid by the amount of timber I produce.
So I'm very conscious about not wasting time on unnecessary moves.

If you only fall a few trees a week or are one of those fallers who work at fixed wages, marking corners won't cost you anything..

But you know, anything doing is worth doing right.

Same thing goes for setting your facecut from the "left" side of the tree.

I've trained myself to be able to set a face by instinct , no matter which side of the tree, I'm standing at.

And forced all my apprentices to learn that as well.


As for setting a face from both sides of the tree, I think the cutting from above method is easier.

When you've cut the first side, all you have to do is to insert the bar in the first cut by reaching over from the other side and draw the saw back towards you. The cut is already sighted in, no way to change that.

I'll see if I can get Anders to help me make a video next week to show it.

 

[HolmenTree]

If I'm felling a large stem with a short bar. First from the right side I'll make the complete 2 cuts only half ways through the tree [diagonal first], then go around to the left side and finish the other half by meeting up the cuts. Now from this position I have the "pull of the chain" to make the backcut by pulling from around the far side back towards myself. In some situations I'll gut the hinge through the notch with a sweeping fanning cut inside the tree, plunge cut the back cut from both sides to establish the hingewood , set a wedge if needed then the final step is to cut the "strap" at the back of the tree.

A very large tree can be felled with a 16" bar if done carefully and no "anchor holding strong sapwood" flares have to be cut off. The biggest problem I see alot of cutters have is they are using a half dull saw that is not making good smooth cuts so they don't bother gutting the hinge etc.
When I used to train people how to fall trees [some were women who never used a chainsaw before] I would have them practice on waist high stumps, have them cut a open face notch first then plunge a bore cut a few inches directly behind the notch through the middle of the tree. Now they can slowly cut ahead and establish the proper 10% hinge size, all the while knowing the strap at the back of the tree is keeping the tree standing. After they did this a few times I would then time them with a stop watch and pick a winner. Yes that one woman with no prior saw experience beat out the men who claimed they used a saw lots.

Willard.

 

[sotc]

Stig, I do see that advantage of the angled cut first for cutting from two sides. Of course I just run a longer bar so no biggie

 

[SouthSoundTree]

If I'm felling a large stem with a short bar. First from the right side I'll make the complete 2 cuts only half ways through the tree [diagonal first], then go around to the left side and finish the other half by meeting up the cuts.

plunge cut the back cut from both sides to establish the hingewood , set a wedge if needed then the final step is to cut the "strap" at the back of the tree.


Willard.

I cut my face like Willard was saying, except horizontal first.

When it comes to the back cut, I'll usually plunge cut to set up one side, working my way toward the back, until I get a tip out on the far side. I'll then pull the bar out, and reinsert from the far side, cutting up the hinge on that side. I get one kerf out of it, rather than two overlapping kerfs (which is fine). That way, if the tree goes unexpectedly, tearing the backstrap while I'm still cutting up the second part of the hinge (haven't had this happen, but it could), I don't have to worrry about a saw snatcher, if my second plunge kerf overlaps on top of the first plunged backcut kerf. Release the backstrap.

When doublecutting. I use the sight the "gun" to the very farthest object that I can accurately use, whereas, with single width cuts, a nearer object will work well enough to get all lined up.

With thick barked trees, like doug-fir, I'll shave the bark off at the apex of the notch on both sides. Its so easy to have saw chips plug up a potential dutchman, making it hard to accurately read what you've cut. A wedge tucked in the back pocket clears chips off of the face notch and shows the presence of a dutchman or clean apex well, without having to blow chips out and possibly get some dust in the eyes, nor have to use a much heavier saw/ bar to wipe out the chips.

 

[HolmenTree]

Good points Sean.
I'll go on another derail here. I've heard its often said that 90% of tree felling accidents occur within 5 feet of where the final cut is made, within 15 seconds of the tree starting to fall making this the 5- 15- 90 rule. So having said that if a backstrap on a hazard tree can be released by cutting it with a 12 foot or longer pole saw then the chance of getting injured should be reduced by 90%.

Another one for the tool box.

Willard.

 

[sotc]

Good points Sean.
I'll go on another derail here. I've heard its often said that 90% of tree felling accidents occur within 5 feet of where the final cut is made, within 15 seconds of the tree starting to fall

Sorry Willard, but when and where else would felling accidents occur

 

[SkwerI]

Good points Sean.
I'll go on another derail here. I've heard its often said that 90% of tree felling accidents occur within 5 feet of where the final cut is made, within 15 seconds of the tree starting to fall making this the 5- 15- 90 rule. So having said that if a backstrap on a hazard tree can be released by cutting it with a 12 foot or longer pole saw then the chance of getting injured should be reduced by 90%.

Another one for the tool box.

Willard.

Correlation does not equal causation. I'm going to disagree emphatically with you here. Farting around trying to trip a backstrap with a pole saw is rather ridiculous and a sign of irrational fear overriding good sense. Of course there may be the once or twice in a lifetime where a particularly hazardous and unique situation might call for such a technique, but most fallers may never encounter such a situation in their careers.

 

[HolmenTree]

Sorry Willard, but when and where else would felling accidents occur

You mean the other 10%?
I'll give you a couple, after taking a tree down then while working on another tree a half hour later a hung up broken limb from the first tree falls on your head.
How about leaving a cut tree stand and while walking back to the truck to get another wedge the tree falls on you.
Anyone else with some more situations?

Willard.

 

[HolmenTree]

Correlation does not equal causation. I'm going to disagree emphatically with you here. Farting around trying to trip a backstrap with a pole saw is rather ridiculous and a sign of irrational fear overriding good sense. Of course there may be the once or twice in a lifetime where a particularly hazardous and unique situation might call for such a technique, but most fallers may never encounter such a situation in their careers.

Brian I wish I could show you some real nasty trees that were not safe to climb let alone cut that I have removed.

Willard

 

[pigwot]

What technique do you figure these fellows were using?. This standing dead oak in our neighborhood was 'too expensive' for the homeowner to remove.

They found someone to take it for the firewood. They stripped half of a mature spruce and part of a maple letting it fall, no rope, no plan as far as I could tell.

After a whole day of cutting they had about finished cutting up the top.
Wonder how long it'll take them to cut up the trunk section?

Their saws sounded like they could have been tuned a bit better.
Here are a few stump shots:

 

[SkwerI]

At least they had some hinge wood. Looks like the saw was cutting a bit crooked.

 

[stig]

Those guys are definitely not pros.
As we all know a true pro uses a slanted backcut!

 

[Cobleskill]

It looks like they changed their mind after starting a notch on the opposite side. I have seen some worse jobs. I like looking at stumps when I am on the road. They tell some good stories.

 

[Burnham]

Awful, just plain awful. My stomach hurts just looking at that stump.

 

[gf beranek]

Marking the corners is an excellent technique to use in large trees where the face has to be sawn from two sides. Though even with the method there are ways to error.

Marking the corners is used a lot in the PNW because the trees reach farther and by it, the lays can be much tighter.

 

[Gord]

I just read through most of the thread, lots of good discussion. I think for myself I've found it necessary to be proficient in most of the ways discussed. Whether you're on steep ground or in an awkward position in a tree, often the options of where you can stand and what type of cut you can make are limited. It's easy enough to be confident with one method on good ground and small to medium trees but I find it beneficial to switch it up even in these easier situations to practice up for more difficult circumstances.

Here's a faller cutting up a heavy leaner, he can't see the far corner and can only reach it with the saw in an unconventional manner but the cuts lined up for a good clean undercut. Is this the only or easiest way to cut this up? Probably not, but there's definitely no easy method, so whatever works for the guy on the saw is the way to go.

 

[Old Monkey]

Looks like a good spot for an old fashioned spring board.

 

[sotc]

You mean the other 10%?
I'll give you a couple, after taking a tree down then while working on another tree a half hour later a hung up broken limb from the first tree falls on your head.
How about leaving a cut tree stand and while walking back to the truck to get another wedge the tree falls on you.
Anyone else with some more situations?

Willard.

No, just that the stats seem worthless. Like saying most automobile accidents happen within 5 feet of a paved road and within 10 seconds of airbag deployment. I'm truly not trying to be a smart alec, just emphasize the obviousness

 

[HolmenTree]

I'll go on another derail here. I've heard its often said that 90% of tree felling accidents occur within 5 feet of where the final cut is made, within 15 seconds of the tree starting to fall making this the 5- 15- 90 rule. So having said that if a backstrap on a hazard tree can be released by cutting it with a 12 foot or longer pole saw then the chance of getting injured should be reduced by 90%.


Willard.

Here it is again for you to emphasize the obviousness

Willard.

 

[sotc]

 

[HolmenTree]

In a week or so I would like to start a thread about the 5-15-90 rule and talk about other controlled hinge release techniques for example the bypass or mismatch cutting the strap technique while pulling down hung up trees.
But starting right now I'll be gone for a week, I'm the director and a sponsor for our local winter festival chainsaw-logger events. Check out www.trappersfestival.com [2009-2010 chainsaw events and 2011 logger events.] Listen to our ear worm trapper festival song as you open the site.
Be safe guys!!

Willard.

 

[rskybiz]

Have fun Willard!