How do you align a diagonal?

[The Tree Doctor]

I didn't see the option for using a spotter.

 

[gf beranek]

In nature there is no left or right side. But in our own descriptions we need to differenciate such things so other people can understand what we are talking about. As to the relative right side of a tree would we be talking about looking towards the lay or looking at the tree from the lay? A lot of meaning is lost in translation of relative points when we talk about such things. And it makes for a lot of misunderstandings and confusion. But I do believe that through these discussions more understanding will be gleaned about relative points by how they are used in context of the particular subject. In this thread it's how we square our underbed to our opening cut. Undercut, diagonal cut, whatever. But the roll axis of the bar is key to understanding how it equates to matching the diagonal to the under cut.

Did I thoroughly confuse all of you yet? I swear I'm starting to sound like that Tree Spider at the Buzz forum. It's deep.

 

[Jed]

Thanks to Burnham and Jer for reading my mind. Sorry Butch and Stig!!! And Butch: feel more than free to sanitize the title. I wasn't trying to be esoteric with the terminology, I promise--it's just that Jerry's book has made up such a permanent part of the backdrop of my consciousness whenever I'm thinking about work, that I can't avoid his phraseology. I didn't have anybody to show me this trade, when I started out in New Mexico, of all the God forsaken places. I read my way into the geekish status I now possess.

Now, as a residential arborist in the East Puget Sound area, I find that no two tree guys agree on what the heck we're doin' around here, and I'm actually really curious to see how people in different parts of the country/world go about things. My foreman's feelings get really hurt when I refuse to backchain (There I go again! It means: to cut with the top of the bar.) both cuts--horizontal and diagonal--on the face cut. He does everything by "gut feel"--also Jerry's term--but his cutting is just nasty.

For all of your sake, I wish that I weren't such a geek as to start this thread, but I am; and I may as well break down and confess that I possess nothing even remotely like a natural "gut-feel" talent for aligning the three magic cuts. (horizontal, diagonal, back cut)

I don't know: some people go completely nuts over art galleries, fine wine and classical music. I drink two pints of Keystone, and then pour through pictures of misery whip and axe days, or else Jerry's second-growth redwood, Fundamentals, face cut shots. Both display the same beauty of precision. I wish to God I could cut like that without cheating. (looking down the cut) I'm such a nerd that I actually go home in a sullen mood, if--when I get to do a tall fur with several face cuts on the spar--my hinges don't look real pretty.

I realize that you are all tree guys and not psychotherapists, but, I still think that it might help me to hear about how you guys do it. If that doesn't work, I'll break down and get some counseling. O.k--I want another Keystone. No I don't. Yes I do. No I don't. Yes I do. NO I DON'T!!! There: another day tomorrow without a headache!

 

[HolmenTree]

Yes lots of terminology. How about " felling notch" or just notch. The point where the 2 cuts meet can be called the "apex". Not representing a Humbolt here but in a conventional notch the first cut is the downward diagonal cut aiming the saw's felling sight in the process. The second cut starts at the bottom of the 1st cut, then sweep cut across while looking down from above through the diagonal cut watching for the 2 cuts to meet.
To be honest it just takes repetitive practice and in little pecker poles just a quick slash is enough for a notch.

Willard.

 

[SkwerI]

Hah! My notches and hinge cuts were anything but pretty for many years. I've gotten better but it still takes me at least one extra cut to clean up my notches on average. I almost never nail it on the first try unless it's a small stem (under 24").

I'm thinking of reversing my stance and seeing how I do if I make all my cuts from the opposite side of the tree. I'm a lefty so I naturally want to stand on the right side of the tree (facing the lay). But the body of the saw is in the way of me seeing the top (angled) cut in the notch. Maybe if I try it from the other side I'll be able to see what I'm doing a little better.

 

[bruce6670]

Yes lots of terminology. How about " felling notch" or just notch. The point where the 2 cuts meet can be called the "apex". Not representing a Humbolt here but in a conventional notch the first cut is the downward diagonal cut aiming the saw's felling sight in the process. The second cut starts at the bottom of the 1st cut, then sweep cut across while looking down from above through the diagonal cut watching for the 2 cuts to meet.
To be honest it just takes repetitive practice and in little pecker poles just a quick slash is enough for a notch.

Willard.

Can't get much clearer than that.

 

[Burnham]

Except there will always be the agument that says Willard is badly wrong when he identifies the first cut as the angled one. I fear I disagree with him there pretty strongly .

 

[gf beranek]

I feel the same, B, but after much exhaustive thinking about the two different methods I have come upon a feeling that there is some merit to the opposite way we do the face. In a nutshell, I think the difference is in the users feeling of ease in how they set the gun and match their cuts. It obviously work for those users.

But I'm still with you on the pacific coast standard of procedure in making a face cut. It works for me just fine and it is the school I teach.

Not saying the other method doesn't work. It obviously does for them. In the end it works out the same. I wonder though in the precision of the two methods of fitting a 60 foot tree into a tight lay in comparison to fitting a 200 foot tall tree into a lay.

Now that may define it a little bit finer. It can be measured very easily. And the results may be quite surprising.

 

[Burnham]

Agree with all you've said, Jer.

 

[Jed]

Yeah... The horizontal's got to go first!!! When I said that I had no one to teach me, that was only half true. A fire-fighter B faller--I know, I know...those guys don't know jack, etc--did at least teach me to make the horizontal undercut first. He said that that was the only way I would ever be able to gun worth a darn. However: Willard's got more experience in his little finger than I've got in my whole body; so, I'd gladly submit to his instruction.

 

[GASoline71]

Now, as a residential arborist in the East Puget Sound area, I find that no two tree guys agree on what the heck we're doin' around here, and I'm actually really curious to see how people in different parts of the country/world go about things. My foreman's feelings get really hurt when I refuse to backchain (There I go again! It means: to cut with the top of the bar.) both cuts--horizontal and diagonal--on the face cut. He does everything by "gut feel"--also Jerry's term--but his cutting is just nasty.

I'm up in the North Sound area... primarily on Whidbey Island... but get jobs as far north as Whatcom County once in awhile. I don't do residential stuff... Mostly land clearing for homes and such in the boonies. I still back-bar (what you called "back chain") once in awhile. A lot of guys I know do it. Again just depends on the situation, and where you have to stand when you cut.

"Face cuts" are face cuts... unless you start talkin' Humboldt vs. conventional vs. open. there are a lot of guys that will do the "top" cut of a conventional instead of the horizontal cut first. I find it harder to gun the tree that way. Horizontal first, whether I'm makin' a Humboldt or a conventional... Then there's "snipe" cuts, Dutchman cuts, and the swing Dutchman. It can get over technical sounding at times.

Gary

 

[Old Monkey]

I think my answer is B.

These are a few trick I use that help me match up my cuts:

I practice going straight from having my bar all the way in the back cut to starting the top cut. I think its your muscles you need to train and not your brain. If you practice one smooth motion, you will get your cuts to match more often than not.

I imagine two intersecting plains, not lines.

On big trees, I am not above cheating, sticking a twig in the back of my horizontal cut and looking down the bar to see if I am going to match up.

On a big tree if I miss a little high, I stop above the bottom cut and break out the pie, leaving a little bit of flat backed face on one side or both.

 

[Jed]

Yeah Darrin: Me too--on busting it out if I miss it high that is. The nasty thing though, is if you try to do that when you only have a little stob to fall. I've lost a few of them to the side that the accidental gap is on, because, of course, the wood holds better there than it does in the pinch on the near side. Smashed a guys sidewalk that way once!

 

[Ed L]

Horizontal cut first...always. Don't see how anyone can sight a lay by doing the angle cut first.
On a top angle cut, I'll "sight" the cut using the side of the bar, I do the same as Old Monkey, miss high, just bust it out with my axe. Bottom notch, dog in at the end of the horizontal cut, pivot the saw up to intersect.

Ed

 

[Stumper]

A B C D +E PDQ ASAP YMMV LOL

 

[CurSedVoyce]

 

[MasterBlaster]

Don't see how anyone can sight a lay by doing the angle cut first.

Same here.

 

[pigwot]

I was taught to start on he horizontal cut.
I almost always use a conventional rather than a Humboldt.
If it is a large tree I place twigs in each 'corner' of the first cut, to sight the second, angled cut
and typically stand in the lay looking at the center of the tree, sighting across the bar width to visually line up the twigs in order to set the bar 'roll'.
Once I start the cut I step to the side and tilt to meet the corner away from me and then drag the bar down to meet the near corner.
On small stuff it is gut feel and I don't stop to think about it, just instinctual cutting.

 

[Blinky]

I think it's easier to be accurate with the fall by starting with the horizontal but a lot of people, including myself, were taught the conventional by starting with the top cut because it's easier to make a clean face by watching through the kerf as the bottom cut comes in.

I learned to use start with the horizontal here at the House and I screwed up about a million face cuts but finally they started matching up. I don't have a system or trick or anything other than like Darin I go straight to the second cut without stopping, it just started happening. My mistakes were usually just like Gerry said, rolling the bar... or rather, not rolling it enough.

 

[HolmenTree]

Except there will always be the agument that says Willard is badly wrong when he identifies the first cut as the angled one. I fear I disagree with him there pretty strongly .

Ok lets say the 1st cut could be a vertical cut, I like to cut at ground level and cutting down vertical into the flare is good...... thats where the strongest and widest hingewood is.
Now I understand on the PNW for generations trees were felled at waist high or higher so sighting down a diagonal kerf to watch the 2nd horizontal cut meet up may be useless, unless if your a big Jack Pollman. Plus the weight of the huge notch wedge pinching your bar would be a problem too.
But to say you can't accurately aim with the saws gunsights when the saw is at 45 degree in a diagonal cut is telling me you haven't practiced enough. You have 2 sights to use at a 45, the top cover line and rewind housing line or the top cover line and clutch cover line. If your not sure then verify by using the rewind sight in the finished notch. This is better and less time wasted then recutting a mismatched apex when doing the horizontal first.
When sighting with the rewind and top cover sights combined alot of time is saved when setting up your notch plus the saw is at a comfortable height to aim.
When making the 1st cut vertical into the flare just use the top cover sight.
When I was a faller on piecework cutting pulpwood and medium timber I never used the saws gunsights and never had to watch the 2 cuts meet, it just came with repetitive practice. But since getting into residential tree removal I have slowed it down a few notches and take the time to verify, and yes even sometimes getting a a 60 ft tree to lay in a tight spot I will get out the big T square.

Willard.

 

[stig]

Horizontal cut first...always. Don't see how anyone can sight a lay by doing the angle cut first.


Ed

You guys who keep repeating that mantra comes off sounding a little provincial, to my year.

In about ½ the world, all pro fallers do it the other way round, myself included.


I can't explain how I do, my English is not up to the task, at least not right now after a hard day in the woods.

I'm not computersavvy enough to upload a video, but on my homepage at the bottom of the front page is a short video, that shows how I do.

Some of you have seen it before.

 

[HolmenTree]

You guys who keep repeating that mantra comes off sounding a little provincial, to my year.

In about ½ the world, all pro fallers do it the other way round, myself included.


I can't explain how I do, my English is not up to the task, at least not right now after a hard day in the woods.

I'm not computersavvy enough to upload a video, but on my homepage at the bottom of the front page is a short video, that shows how I do.

Some of you have seen it before.

Thanks Stig.
The generations old mindset where the horizontal "face cut" was made first was long established before chainsaw use. The handsaw made the horizontal cut then the axe finished the notch from above . The practice just kept on into chainsaw use.

Willard.

 

[Burnham]

Of course we are provincial, and not just a little bit either . So half the pro fallers in the world are wrong in how they do it, eh? That's not near as bad as I thought it would be .

I just like rattling cages on this subject...my bad.

In all honesty, I do wonder if the more generously sized stems that were the norm here in the PNW when logging with chainsaws started were easier to gun to the lay by swinging in the horizontal cut first. Seems that on a smaller stem it would be somewhat easier to point to the lay and cut the angled face cut first. I don't know. I surely do know that it works either way...I am in full agreement with Jerry...what works best is what you are used to doing, and be damned if someone will convince another that thus and such way is better .

 

[stig]

Nah, Burnham, it is not so bad here with the provincialism.

I looked at the Forestry thread on AS a while ago and they pretty much hold on to the opinion that if you're not from the PNW, you are not a real logger and had best shut up.

Like you, I like joking about the subject.


But the fun thing is, I would be completely unable to hit a lay if I tried to make the horizontal cut first.

At first, anyway.

Like Jerry says, whatever you are used to.


Still fun to tease each other, though!

 

[Burnham]

Yup!