hinge pics

Burnham said:
Be very cautious in utilizing this technique.

Dent wrote that in his seminal book in the early 1970's. He was amazing in his abilities at dissecting felling and bucking into distinct actions and results, learned the hard way as an experienced contract faller, at only 23 years of age. Broke ground on many fronts.

I had the great good fortune to train and get USFS certification under his eye every 2 years, from the late 1980's, for nearly 3 decades on. And as anyone with a whit of brain should expect, D.D. Dent's perspectives, perceptions, and positions evolved over those 40 some years since his first publication of Procedural Approach.

And there is where I can offer some insight, having listened to his lectures, and even more so, stood at his side as I felled under his eye, and then endured his criticism and kudos, both.

So the point of all this is...by a couple of decades after his book was published, Doug had pretty much eschewed use of the swing Dutchman, in that while he was completely positive in his acknowledgement that the method worked in general terms, he also had decided that, as a method to teach, is was sufficiently unreliable to what degree the sawyer could expect so far as results, to trust much.
Click to expand...

Agreed... excellent post and thank you for the first hand confirmation... It makes perfect sense.... a technique may be valuable and effective, yet not reliable enough to teach...


I WANT TO KNOW WHY

The ash held perfectly .. the maple didn't.... WHY?????

Unlocking the why will tend to remove the unpredictability..... until then I use it in low risk situations , mostly on smaller trees
 
Daniel, there will never ever be an unlocking of this why. That is because no one tree is exactly the duplicate of any other tree. Dent knew this, and you seemingly do not.

You've handled plenty enough trees to see this, I'm sure. If it is not obvious to you, then you are a seriously challenged individual, in terms of intelligence and ability to analyze and understand the physical world around you. I rather doubt that is really the case, even if you do seem to offer up evidence to the contrary on a semi-regular basis.
 
Burnham said:
Daniel, there will never ever be an unlocking of this why. That is because no one tree is exactly the duplicate of any other tree. Dent knew this, and you seemingly do not.
Click to expand...

Dr B,
There is ALWAYS a why... As imperfect as we humans are, the beauty of tree work is that it is always perfect.. Every cut every one of us has ever made has followed the laws of physics perfectly and it will go on as such forever. As sure as the sun comes up in the east, there is always a why... cause and effect.. its an immutable law of the universe. Even the seemingly paranormal which many of us have experienced, may seem to be outside the laws of physics, but it never is. The understanding of that "why" is just yet to be reached.

And so the march of science moves slowly and clumsily towards a greater understanding of "truth".. 50 years from now the present understanding of the world around us will seem very primitive, yet science continues to be the modern religion, with the vast majority of people stuck in a refusal to acknowledge the possibility that anything outside the existing paradigms could ever be possible... Conformity demands ridicule of those who think outside the box...

There are traditional Native American spiritual teachings that distinguish between the unknown and the unknowable. As much as we think of ourselves, the human mind is very limited in its ability to perceive and comprehend. While it may be foolish and even dangerous to pursue an understanding of the unknowable, I believe the factors that influence the effectiveness/unreliability of the swing dutchman are in the realm of the unknown. If so they are knowable, just yet to be discovered...

I personally enjoy thinking about these things. Dent put the swing dutch in his book because he saw it work, as I have seen it work. He stopped teaching it because he saw it fail, as I have seen it fail. Yes every tree is different, but the laws of physics are the same so it's just a matter of understanding the variables that effect reliability. Dent couldn't figure all the variables out in a way that made it worth pursuing or teaching. But we have things that he didn't...

We have each other, through the internet we can share our experiences communally. That's huge.. We have easy access to photos and video, which may not be as helpful in falling scenarios as it is in rigging, and we have Doug Dent... And men like him, the giants upon whose shoulders we can stand to take their understanding to the next level.

There are many variables to consider when it comes to the swing dutchman... In trying to put some of those together, I only have speculation at this time... Small diameter trees, heavy front lean, trying to pull them to the side.... that's all I got so far, and it seems pretty weak, but hopefully something to build upon... I AM fortunate in that I get a lot of low and no risk situations with plenty of open space to experiment with. And can experiment with the use of pull lines and the skid loader which allows for easy changes in direction of pull.

Maybe its not worth pursuing.. maybe another technique will prove more reliable and effective, making the swing dutch go the way of the typewriter.. maybe... but maybe not.. either way there is something to learn from thoughtful experimentation.. So far it seems to have offered considerable value...

now someoen say "TOTAL B.S." haha
 
murphy4trees said:
Dr B,
There is ALWAYS a why... As imperfect as we humans are, the beauty of tree work is that it is always perfect.. Every cut every one of us has ever made has followed the laws of physics perfectly and it will go on as such forever. As sure as the sun comes up in the east, there is always a why... cause and effect.. its an immutable law of the universe. Even the seemingly paranormal which many of us have experienced, may seem to be outside the laws of physics, but it never is. The understanding of that "why" is just yet to be reached.

And so the march of science moves slowly and clumsily towards a greater understanding of "truth".. 50 years from now the present understanding of the world around us will seem very primitive, yet science continues to be the modern religion, with the vast majority of people stuck in a refusal to acknowledge the possibility that anything outside the existing paradigms could ever be possible... Conformity demands ridicule of those who think outside the box...

There are traditional Native American spiritual teachings that distinguish between the unknown and the unknowable. As much as we think of ourselves, the human mind is very limited in its ability to perceive and comprehend. While it may be foolish and even dangerous to pursue an understanding of the unknowable, I believe the factors that influence the effectiveness/unreliability of the swing dutchman are in the realm of the unknown. If so they are knowable, just yet to be discovered...

I personally enjoy thinking about these things. Dent put the swing dutch in his book because he saw it work, as I have seen it work. He stopped teaching it because he saw it fail, as I have seen it fail. Yes every tree is different, but the laws of physics are the same so it's just a matter of understanding the variables that effect reliability. Dent couldn't figure all the variables out in a way that made it worth pursuing or teaching. But we have things that he didn't...

We have each other, through the internet we can share our experiences communally. That's huge.. We have easy access to photos and video, which may not be as helpful in falling scenarios as it is in rigging, and we have Doug Dent... And men like him, the giants upon whose shoulders we can stand to take their understanding to the next level.

There are many variables to consider when it comes to the swing dutchman... In trying to put some of those together, I only have speculation at this time... Small diameter trees, heavy front lean, trying to pull them to the side.... that's all I got so far, and it seems pretty weak, but hopefully something to build upon... I AM fortunate in that I get a lot of low and no risk situations with plenty of open space to experiment with. And can experiment with the use of pull lines and the skid loader which allows for easy changes in direction of pull.

Maybe its not worth pursuing.. maybe another technique will prove more reliable and effective, making the swing dutch go the way of the typewriter.. maybe... but maybe not.. either way there is something to learn from thoughtful experimentation.. So far it seems to have offered considerable value...

now someoen say "TOTAL B.S." haha
Click to expand...

Yup...I will say so :)

Actually, you may be to some degree correct, if limited to after the fell analysis goes. Sure, then we can see what happened, and learn more about why it did. So to that extent, we can increase our understanding of why such and such happened when we set up exactly this construct at the hinge, on this specific tree that has exactly these physical conditions...all after the fact.

What I meant in my post is, that set of conditions on any one tree, will never ever occur again, exactly. There are too many variables. And it only takes a tiny bit of variance to make for different outcomes...sometimes quite large ones. So having a before the fell understanding of "why" the multitude of potential results might be influenced by those conditions...well, they will almost certainly be at variance with the actual one...very unlikely to happen. And thus, rather useless in the real world, no matter how interesting it is in the theoretical one.

As I said...Dent totally got this. Daniel, if you think you have more to bring to the table than DD Dent...well, go on, have at it. I doubt I'll be the only one chuckling at your hubris.
 
For me,
in my imagery...
.
Normal Tension escalating all the way to Tapered Hinge etc, has a pull and also safety mechanical fuse/release/tearoff on overload.
Normal Compression escalating all the way to Dutchmans, can Barber Chair, overcoming whole tree container of force, not just a few tensioned strands
>>Compression does not separate on overload like overloaded tension, the train keeps on coming full bull ;is fully confrontational w/o relief of mechanical fiber fuse shear
>>compression forces can bind, seize, tree can come apart in Dutchman in contrast to just whatever overloaded tension strands simply tearing/shearing on over load being sacrificed as fuse.
.
Tapered Hinge generally gives full tour on hinge control until tearoff, as a ballast against sideLean, like sandbags out to the counter side of lean to balance to center
Compressions/ Dutchmans only adjust on (that side)face close as more of a finishing touch/adjustment mostly i think,after tour on hinge.
>>exception would be kerf type Dutchmans, but still allow some movement.
>>actually to invoke the most Dutchman response, i think logically takes purposefully hitting compression HARD to the rebound with the reflected force
>>Don't want to make so much as a shelf tree sits on in step Dutchman, or po-lightly rolls off of step,
BUT rather allow tree to 'think' can run like race horse in direction it wants(lean), then let the close on 1 side act like were just letting build speed make harder jerk on leash of movement allowed to then revert to chosen direction(targeted facing).
So besides the other factors,the slamming speed needed for best response more risky endeavor.
Dutchman is more of inconsistent 2 part machine earlier, before so much full tilt/ tearoff as we are used to >> forms an over ruling face within a face of competing,not flowing mechanic WHILE CLOSER TO VERTICAL ANGLE!!
.
Swing Dutchman to me (some terms change in localaites some) is combined Step Dutchman push to center in concert with Tapered Hinge pull to center
>>w/o countering face close on other side as a Step Dutchman and likewise w/o any tension hinge fibers countering spin on compression side that normally is anti-spin.(So normally always leave at least that tuft of fiber on sidelean side to not have spin w/Tapered etc.)
.
Dutchmans seem can give the most power, but then that power can tear mighty tree apart etc.
So in full scale felling more dicey, especially as put swing in mix.
i'd think too risky, in full scale of amplitude felling, with so many variables would be the WHY Dr.D. would have stopped teaching it.
>>always potentially playing with power, flirting with death, so trim the most extreme, risky end to make safer practices.
>>This can put too many chips on the table to lose to some upcoming hand; it's more volatile, it's in the cards to get a losing hand..
.
Swing Dutchman can be very wild, sometimes have even shaved tree off of stump just before destination on sweep to keep from over-swing past target.
Swing D. pushes and pulls in concert, in same rotational direction w/o restrictions of countering close or pull on the less active extremes of each
>>in this way the truest like marital art strategy of working both ends against the middle with targets own forces to me
Just too powerful, unwieldy, too many variables etc. to walk so close to devastation w/o occasionally stepping over line as flirting with forces at too far an extreme
.
In tree is to smaller scale;safer range of forces.
BUT, doesn't have the leveraged breadth across stump of large felling >>nor the weight and leverage
>>these input things give more power to Dutchman response output
So in tree, longer,more leveraged loads give better response
>>but really work the SPEED factor more to makeup for some lower forces and leverages.
Like slamming a top harder/faster into a kerf facing for mo'better hop across over fence on ground etc.
.
Dutchmans , especially swings are good mechanix to know, understand;
but mostly then to be able to NOT accidentally invoke and conjure ;especially in full scale felling ranges and speeds that it takes to make them really show their stuffs! >>both good, bad & oogly!
.
Tension support happens during trees whole life, slamming into Dutchman more of our own contrivance.
 
I've been wondering if the strength of wood fibers in the tree can be effected by the way the tree grows in response to forces acted upon by the lean and prevailing winds... Especially the lean though... makes sense that they would... much as callous growth is much stronger than normal fibers... Seems like a heavy front and side leaner might grow with more strength in the wood fibers.. perhaps that extra strength can effect the swing dutchman ... just a theory... one way to proceed with research would b to video tape many swing dutch hinges and actually listen to the sound as the hinge stretches and rips... I don't see the harm when there is a low or no risk scenario.. that's when I'll try just about anything..

If I didn't say ti already that ash really surprised me with its ability to hold against side lean... whenever I see something work so much better than expected I really want t know why
 
...it's 'affected'
as in 'the lean of the tree affected the fibres which had the effect of making it pull to one side..." (hypothetical sentence)

Sorry, couldn't...resist...
 
The fibers aren't affected per se, but built on purpose. The cambium layer "feels" the strain on its axis and put in place each year whatever is needed to sustain the load. It can produce either more wood or densier/stronger fibers, or both. It's obvious with the wood's density in the crotches and stumps. Same with the compession wood in the conifers sustaining/correcting a lean or pulling up a limb to replace a broken top.
 


This cut shown at 7:00 could certainly be called a swing dutchman... while there was a thin strip of hinge fibers left on the compression side, the tapered angle of the back ct on the tension side, left the majority of hing fibers on the tension side of the tree, at the most leveraged place to fight the side lean. The hinge had excellent holding ability, as evidenced by the long stringy fibers in the stump and the squeaking, popping, and tearing sounds as the tree fell all the way to horizontal.
 
Last edited:
Burnham said:
Yup...I will say so :)

Actually, you may be to some degree correct, if limited to after the fell analysis goes. Sure, then we can see what happened, and learn more about why it did. So to that extent, we can increase our understanding of why such and such happened when we set up exactly this construct at the hinge, on this specific tree that has exactly these physical conditions...all after the fact.

What I meant in my post is, that set of conditions on any one tree, will never ever occur again, exactly. There are too many variables. And it only takes a tiny bit of variance to make for different outcomes...sometimes quite large ones. So having a before the fell understanding of "why" the multitude of potential results might be influenced by those conditions...well, they will almost certainly be at variance with the actual one...very unlikely to happen. And thus, rather useless in the real world, no matter how interesting it is in the theoretical one.

As I said...Dent totally got this. Daniel, if you think you have more to bring to the table than DD Dent...well, go on, have at it. I doubt I'll be the only one chuckling at your hubris.
Click to expand...

Perhpas it would be better to start with where the swing dutchman should NOT be used... I noticed when looking through my photos and video that every time I tried it in earnest, it was on smaller diameter trees.. Perhaps just instinct. When analyzing the potential problems with the swing dutchman, one glaring issue would seem to be that anything heavy with a lot of side lean is going to squish the empty kerf on the compression side as soon as the hinge gets small enough to not be able to hold up against all that lean... and when the kerf closes, the top is going to move even farther into the lean, which obviously is no bueno...

That would make the Swing dutch contraindicated on anything massive

ps.. this may feel like kicking a dead horse to some of you, but I've been reviewing the photos and videos which have reminded me of just how effective this cut CAN be.. I just hate to toss it, without some more experimentation and pondering..
 
murphy4trees said:
one glaring issue would seem to be that anything heavy with a lot of side lean is going to squish the empty kerf on the compression side as soon as the hinge gets small enough to not be able to hold up against all that lean... and when the kerf closes, the top is going to move even farther into the lean, which obviously is no bueno...
.
Click to expand...


That is why I use a whizzy on heavy side leaners.
By having no stumpshot on the compression side, there are no vertical fibers to get squashed, so the hinge doesn't compress.

Unless you cut it away, like in your picture.
 
Stumpshot or not, if the hinge is thin enough, its fibers are crushed down almost by the value of the kerf's width. The tree leans more by the same amount, no need to cut out completely the hinge on this side.
 
Did I say that one needed to cut the hinge out?

That was the opposite of what I meant.
 
I can see what you say though. The stumpshot represents as much of a step during the fall if the edge crumbles under the load before the closing of the face.
 
stig said:
That is why I use a whizzy on heavy side leaners.
By having no stumpshot on the compression side, there are no vertical fibers to get squashed, so the hinge doesn't compress.

Unless you cut it away, like in your picture.
Click to expand...

I never really did get the hang of whizzy.... I can see allowing the hinge fibers no height on the compression side might help.. Seems like a very good idea..

AND my new theory is that when hinge fibers on the front of the hinge have some length, it allows for some crushing or shifting at the front of the hinge, which rather than hurt the holding ability actually HELPS the hinge hold by making the pulling forces more even across the total surface of the hinge.. Rather than have uneven forces, where the back of the hinge gets the majority of the force, and then as those fibers rip, the force gets transfered forward..
 
Please clarify that you use "theory" in the "totally in your head" sense (5th definition), not the "scientifically accepted, evidence-supported sense" (1st definition).

Definition of theory
1 : a plausible or scientifically acceptable general principle or body of principles offered to explain phenomena
the wave theory of light
2a : a belief, policy, or procedure proposed or followed as the basis of action
her method is based on the theory that all children want to learn
b : an ideal or hypothetical set of facts, principles, or circumstances —often used in the phrase in theory
in theory, we have always advocated freedom for all
3a : a hypothesis assumed for the sake of argument or investigation
b : an unproved assumption : CONJECTURE
c : a body of theorems presenting a concise systematic view of a subject
theory of equations
4 : the general or abstract principles of a body of fact, a science, or an art
music theory
5 : abstract thought : SPECULATION
6 : the analysis of a set of facts in their relation to one another





You try to speak with such authority, EVEN SPINNING WORDS LIKE THEORY, and with savior-syndrome (LIKE HOW ACCIDENTALLY TYPING THE TITLE TO YOUR RANT TO AN OLD POST TO A INACTIVE MEMBER AS MAYBE SAVING SOMEONE'S LIFE).



Whizzies are easy as snot to cut, and work. Why didn't you get the concept that is gray-beard knowledge, shared down through the ranks? Too proven to deal with? Too simple?
 
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