Felling with D. Douglas Dent

[TheTreeSpyder]

Fan-freakin'tastic!

Love the high stretched fibers/tails like on the front of his book. These show the real work being done by tension fibers steering tree powerfully.

Once the tree is alive/breathing/ can move the hinge is 'loaded'. As long as the face is open; there is pull from this loading; when closed there is push; at detatchmeant/ tearoff the tree is more of a free agent. The close will force a tearing of the rearmost/ most powerful tension fibers. In a wide/steep face; we can keep the pulls from the tension fiber going over a longer distance/ degree of sweep; for more control of direction and impact.

If a tree achieves tearoff/ becomes a free agent early; and bumps an obstacle on fall path it is more likely to become 'distracted'/diverted from target. But, if the tree is still hanging on; the tension fiber pulls can still work to control the tree. These tension pulls are self adjusting responses; so if tree brushes obstacle on left, and gets nudged to the right, the left tension fibers can immediately self adjust automatically and work to pull the tree back against the sidewards push some. This control and a softer landing can be good friends to have. Of course the more tension force you use like this, the better rooted tree must be; and in an urban example the easier it is to break pipes and wires that the root base/'ball' is wrapped around from shifting underground in reaction to these increased pulls giving control over tree.

If we place obstacle in face, that is a dutchman; and gives early close and offers no relief so risks dreaded barberchair. If we only dutch 1 (lean)side; this offers the opposite side as relief; and far less chance of barberchair; more like some of the pics in Dent's felling bible (as pictured in attachment).

i try to explain similar in Dutch Push in side face and how this gives kinda a tourqued effect; of tension pulling down on one side as compression pushes up on the other. In other words operating either sides of the face individually (as to open or closed) for more options; rather than generically as 1. These things can work in tree too. But, are so powerful; most advice is to be careful not to accidentally engage their powers; by making perfectly meeting cuts; and especially not cutting the horizontal cut too far; as this early close gives more push up the column of resistance; whereby slanted cut too far gives more of a flex; by pushing across the fiber column.

If there is an obstacle in path on Left; and we can get a dutch push from right, right before obstacle push on left; that is good too. Also, this change in compression point on lean or pull/push to side is more of a compounding pivotal change, than adjusting tapered hinge i think.

 

[Burnham]

One other downside that I just recalled...if your objective is maximizing harvested volume from trees, a large conventional face sacrifices some merchantable wood at the most valuable part of the tree.

Thanks, Squish.

 

[squisher]

Yah I've never heard/seen of anyone consistently using a traditional face cut for production falling, but to me atleast it would seem to be the 'cut' of choice were absolute control is the desired function. As in residential treework. What are your thoughts on the differences between using a traditional vs humboldt? Would you choose to use the humboldt in really any other situation besides production falling?

 

[The Branch Doctor]

Holy shit this is an awesome thread! Burnam, you're a stud. I've learned a lot from this and I'm loving it. I don't drop a lot of big ones but I still have to do them and threads like this keep me alive.

Hey spidey, you're a stud too! The info you guys give us is priceless, thank you!

 

[Burnham]

Spydey, it is interesting that Doug Dent has pretty much foresworn use of the swing dutchman due to the unpredictability of the degree of swing one achieves with it.

I expect he's as good with it an any one alive, but he finds it disconcertingly inaccurate to a sufficient degree to satisfy him.

But the physics are true and it does work.

 

[squisher]

I have done a small amount of production falling and fell many individual trees while working yarding. I would say that the 'dutchman' is mostly good to know about so that you don't end up doing it accidentally. Maybe something to try if you're experienced and feel that your other options are limited or maybe it doesn't matter so much if the tree doesn't lay perfectly and of course that it's safe to do so. That said it is a interesting and fascinating technique, just not one that I could ever see using in a residential setting.

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

i've had some luck with it; took me awhile to figure out what he was getting at with all the drawings and intersections of cutting paths! The larger across tree places more distance between the compression and tension; for more leverage.

i've played with it on the ground in medium stuff more; but really, most control and luck i've found is in the air with it; the model also works turned on it's side for horizontal sweeps around(just calcualte cut pattern so that down is lean side). Or, calcualting brushing another branch and getting the close right before that so that the push of dutch and obstachle push limb aside in tandem to steer away more surely; or run a "C" pattern around a lower obstachle somewhat. When rigging with it; have to orchestrate forces right; limb only has so much force to pull on rope tension fiber or tension fiber in hinge or compression in dutch; so using 1 can lessen the effect of the other; unless you can kinda walk the line between and gather both. On the ground; i'd mostly note here that there is real power in it; so don't accidentally invoke it with sloppy cutting/ keep your cuts square to each other. But also; a few times in real extreme side and forward leans; it has made me smile in awe. i wouldn't bet my life on it; but rather calculate i was making a better bet with it on occasion, than without it.

Fantastic topic and pics; these so timely with Beraneck's increase the riches here considerably; partially just by lending more awesome respect for Nature that we touch so often; but hardly any of us so lucky as to touch it in these extremes.

The high torn tension fiber tails you show are awesome. On the front of Dent's book he shows some with the sawyer and saw facing them. i all ways imagined that was like the 2 soldiers saluting each other on a job well done in the lay. The fiber pull to one side wouldn't be so extreme; if the pull to the opposing side was less.

 

[Burnham]

Of course the problem is the exact set of circimstances occur only once, so the experiment never is repeatable. You never can learn enough to guage what the response from the tree will be to the swing dutchman you set up that one time.

 

[Burnham]

Yah I've never heard/seen of anyone consistently using a traditional face cut for production falling, but to me atleast it would seem to be the 'cut' of choice were absolute control is the desired function. As in residential treework. What are your thoughts on the differences between using a traditional vs humboldt? Would you choose to use the humboldt in really any other situation besides production falling?

The main negative to the humbolt is that the downward sloping face of the stump greatly reduces the fuctionality of the stump shot that you want and achieve by setting the back cut higher than the face cut.

Imagine the tree falling...and striking another tree out front due to poor gunning or improper face cut technique. The tendency is for the butt to shoot back at it's stump. If you have a conventional face, leaving a flat facecut bottom, and 3 or 4 inches of stump shot, the butt is likely to hang up on either the front of the stump or the front of the hinge.

With a humbolt face, there is a slope to the front of the stump, and it is low, close to the ground. This gives the butt coming back a ramp to run up and jump over the stumpshot of the hinge, continuing back at the sawyer with quite possible ugly consequences.

Recall how I said that Dent chided me for my escape path being too close to directly behind the stump? This is why he said that. Escape at 45 degrees off of directly opposite the direction of fall.

 

[Burnham]

...I would say that the 'dutchman' is mostly good to know about so that you don't end up doing it accidentally.

Very true, Justin. I could not agree more. We all need to understand the reasons why a "properly" shaped face and "properly" arranged back cut are considered "proper". Doing it just 'cause Burnham or Dent or anyone else said it's the right way is not good enough...we need to know the consequenses, how the tree will respond, if we stray from these principles.

"Close enough" may actually be so for some factors, while for others there is precious little wiggle room for the outcome to match expectations. We need to be able to know the difference to succeed and stay safe.

 

[pantheraba]

Burnham,

Thanks for sharing the pictures and info...excellent, both.

 

[rumination]

Wow, fantastic thread Burnham, very educational! Thanks so much for sharing your knowledge here.




So, how about the face cut in my avatar? Care to do some analysis on that one?

 

[Newfie]

cool thread Burnham, neat to actually meet and know the legend.

I had a beer with a a couple of swinging dutchman once. I went home early when things started getting wierd. I can see why dent would want to avoid them.

 

[wiley_p]

Its nice to hear he is still kicking and just as feisty as ever. The 212 program is the best training for sawyers there is. Dent's input has been key behind the success of the program. Funny, I can't say I like him. I was the focus of a bit of his wrath when I was a young Sawboss on the Shots and knew everything. I do have a great deal of respect for him.

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

i think another negative with a humboldt is it is harder to cut with a big saw. In the bottom cut you have to push and lift the saw up. On a horizontal cut at least you are riding across and the top cut of a conventional you are riding down with the weight of the saw.

i think another aspect of steering a tree not directly into the lean; is less impact. i think that the hardest hit will be A) directly into the lean and B) squarely perpendicular into ground. Steering off this course takes some of the down force and forces tapered to use some of that finite force to steer(leaving less force than originally); then strike more across the ground(assuming flat ground) than squarely into the ground.

i think we've all said that mostly knowledge about dutch forces are best used to guard against invoking them accidentally. Because most dutching; especially by kerf is by accidentally crossing your face cuts; especially if the horizontal cut goes further than the slanted. Horizontal cut closing early gives push up the column for full push force; slanted cut close early pushes across the column to flex it(like is the purpose anyway). Dutching across full face gives no relief/ full stop; the tree lunging forward hits the stop pushing backwards while tree is at steep angle and thereby high danger of BarberChair.

1 use i have found for dutch (besides in air); that is safe(r) is perhaps after storm and 1 tree falls over to be propped up by another. i calculate the line of most force to be vertical; and look for what direction the tree could 'squirm' to get freer/ not more lodged. i face the propped tree so it might move to the side towards freedom. Sometimes freedom is gained by facing up; but generally to the side. Also, straight up is into most pinch force; for it is on axis with the flow of the determining force (gravity). Steering to the side is not feeding into the most force(as in felling example), and uses some of the force to steer too. So after facing to the side some degrees; i'll dutch kerf to top vertical. So that the bottom of hinge is open pulling to the side and top of hinge closes early to push to the side in concert. i think this uses more of the potential force to steer to the less pinch angle. So ill try to close the top of cut early and keep fat part of tapered in lower part of hinge; back cutting upwards and across dogged in near top, off to side of dutched kerf for pivot of saw to sweep from.

Using push on 1 side of hinge leverage and pull on opposing side in concert gives more of a tourqued force; instead of more of the linear both sides open/pull or both sides closed/push in this theory.

 

[Burnham]

Its nice to hear he is still kicking and just as feisty as ever. The 212 program is the best training for sawyers there is. Dent's input has been key behind the success of the program. Funny, I can't say I like him. I was the focus of a bit of his wrath when I was a young Sawboss on the Shots and knew everything. I do have a great deal of respect for him.

Dave, it's been a curving road for me to take over many years to get to the point where I can say I like the man. He is definately not the same man that he was back well over 20 years ago when we both were first under his instruction. The real turning point in his manner with people came directly after his wife was killed piloting her helicopter, flying out long lined X-mas trees...that's been about 10 years ago now, I think.

I bet that if you had kept on with the FS and had the same opportunity as I to continue to be in contact with him, to display your increasing competence and skills, your perceptions of him would have evolved as mine have. I appreciate him more than I did when I was younger and more certain of everything...I agree with you, he has my respect above all else.

 

[MasterBlaster]

It's weird how some people just have that "look."

 

[Burnham]

Wow, fantastic thread Burnham, very educational! Thanks so much for sharing your knowledge here.




So, how about the face cut in my avatar? Care to do some analysis on that one?

Leon, ol' Dent would rip ya a new one .

When you form up a face cut that is unlevel, as the one in your avatar appears to be, you have set up two forces opposing your desired lay.

First, you have directed the tree in a different direction than that to which the tree is gunned...in the case of the avatar tree the actual fall will begin to be to the right of the gunned fall. This is because the folding of the hinge takes the tree off line from the gunning sights, which point in the same direction whether the saw bar is horizontal or tipped up or down some.

Second, the lower side of the face closes before the higher side, breaking loose the hinge on the left side of the avatar tree before the right side. As with a dutchman, the tree will swing toward the held side of the hinge...to the right side of the avatar tree.

In the end, no one knows how much of one force will be added to the other, or if they will be weak and the cutter ends up looking like a genius .

Bottom line, control is given up and luck takes over...while we can never excercise complete control nor escape luck's whim, we should strive to hold on to principles that allow us the best shot at outcomes we desire. Make your face cut and back cut level.

 

[Old Monkey]

I've never met the man but I've seen loads of his videos and taken S-212 a bunch of times. Its good to see he's still kicking. If you can fall a tree correctly with Dent looking over you shoulder, you should have no problems any other time.

It would bother me if Dent was right behind me while I was cutting. I've never liked falling with someone holding on to me or my pack. I prefer to look out for myself rather than have someone yank on me while I'm holding a running chainsaw.

 

[Burnham]

He doesn't yank on you, Darin.

But I take your point.

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

It would bother me if Dent was right behind me while I was cutting. I've never liked falling with someone holding on to me or my pack. I prefer to look out for myself rather than have someone yank on me while I'm holding a running chainsaw.

Ooops i been guilty of that with some(or re-direct angle of backcut); but more to tap on shoulder when it is time to let it work on it's own graces and get the heel outta Dodge while the gittin' is good. Real eerie being so responsible for a beginer like that.

Not to pick on anyone; but is there ever any comment on targeting tree to fall between lean and gun; by overgunning face past target like ForestApps preaches?

To me this isn't as artful in that tree serves not to where mechanics function to (gun) but rather to where they fail their objective at (but meet yours) in between gun and lean. i hear they are quite successful in their art and business (of selling to students) with this methodology. Another point is; that as a climber i can't turn their model on it's side and use for horizontal movemeant like with tapered (and dutch). Like, i can taper hinge against downward pull to stay flatter on travel; but i can't place face upwards(over gunning past horizontal target;once again calculating downwards on the horizontal as lean/ across as target) to get flatter travel across.

Another point of understanding tension and tapered along with compression and dutch; is inspecting the face for rot, dryness etc. before back cutting. This is another point of understanding where compression and tension are needed specifically; and where just leveraged reach across is good enough(can have missing wood and still perform). If, elasticity isn't very good (becasue of species, frozen, rotten, dry etc.) where needed; i shouldn't depend on it's pull as much: and might have to depend more on the compression position. Being as tree is already faced; i might have to alter face, wedge, pull, dutch whatever to finish responsibly and safely to stay in the batter's box and disarm the situation i created. If, on the other hand there is missing, soft etc. wood where compression push/pivot is needed(on lean side); then i might accidentally invoke a dutch push on the opposite side as it pushed more than the lean side(that was failing on compression); thereby the close would push towards lean...

 

[darkstar]

In picture two.
Dent has the helmet of the fellow doing the cutting in his hand .
Is he giving the feller a massage?
I may have missed something there.
Maybe his helmet fell off.
Heck i have a hard time keeping my men in helmets.
Truth be known ,i have one FS employee and he wears his PPE always.
Good example for the crew.

 

[Old Monkey]

For about five years after I got out of the forest service I wore my own PPE all the time on tree jobs and then I slacked off with everyone around me. When the kid came I geared back up and bought my first Petzl. I added more PPE when the mortgage came too.

 

[RIVERRAT]

Whats up with pic # 10 with the 3 wedges? To the right of the pull wood it looks like there is a step. A flat higher than the bottom cut. What did I miss?


{EDIT} 1st off the pic gives kind of an illusion, at least on my screen. But I think I got it. It was a bore cut like you had explained ealier. I just didn't put the explanation with that pic. You can see the heart wood wasn't included in the hinge because of the bore cut. You can also see where the tree crunched the leading edge of the heart wood right before it left the stump. The bore cut caused the tree to leave it's hinge at a higher point above the apex of the face cut than it would have with out the bore cut.

 

[rumination]

Leon, ol' Dent would rip ya a new one .

When you form up a face cut that is unlevel, as the one in your avatar appears to be, you have set up two opposing forces.

First, you have directed the tree in a different direction than that to which the tree is gunned...in the case of the avatar tree the actual fall will begin to be to the right of the gunned fall. This is because the folding of the hinge takes the tree off line from the gunning sights, which point in the same direction whether the saw bar is horizontal or tipped up or down some.

Second, the higher side of the face closes before the lower side, breaking loose the hinge on the right side of the avatar tree before the left side. As with a dutchman, the tree will swing toward the held side of the hinge...to the left side of the avatar tree.

In the end, no one knows which force will overpower the other, or if they will balance out and the cutter ends up looking like a genius .

Bottom line, control is given up and luck takes over...while we can never excercise complete control nor escape luck's whim, we should strive to hold on to principles that allow us the best shot at outcomes we desire. Make your face cut and back cut level.

Thanks Burnham, that was very instructive. I usually try to keep my cuts flat, but I was working for someone else that day and that was how the boss wanted it. If I remember correctly the butt ended up slightly to the left of the intended lay, but it was a while back so I may be wrong about that. We had a wide open field to drop it in so I wasn't too worried about it.