Felling with D. Douglas Dent
- Thread starter Burnham
- Start date
- Replies 358
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T Collins
Aloha Arborist
I want to hear from people in leadership positions a positive message full of solutions from expert counsel. I don't like unilateral capricious behavior that I spanked both of my boys for when they deserved it. Our current president is capable of so much better if he would just stop fighting imaginary battles. He could be the great redirect for this nation's trajectory if he would work on the positive part of our population and not act as though it's him against the world. We don't get the leaders we want, we get what we deserve. Our president has some great traits that he needs to let out more often. He's a capable guy that really needs to learn to delegate and learn from his mistakes. He's not all bad he just needs to eat some of his words without getting so defensive. Then he "would be more presidential than we have ever seen ". In short, when people can admit when they are wrong and we will all see them that much the better for it!Ty, I was with you right up to the end, then you lost me.
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Frankie
I Build and Run Ported Saws !
We never really had that from the git-go or if so I wasn’t born yet! Unelected Bureaucrats shaping, and in some instances outright declaring “mandates” punishable by fine and or imprisonment have folk rightfully concerned ...
T Collins
Aloha Arborist
Well I for one am first to admit my mistake of veering on a trolls tangent hijacking a thread that deserves better. I have personally used a narrow face in what I was told is a "jump cut" when climbing. Mr. Coates frequently extols the virtues of the narrow face while climbing. What are the real advantages of the narrow face for anyone else who is using it?
Looking forward to insight on this. Super helpful aloft, I’ve started playing around with a narrow faced humboldt with a very open snipe and works great. The top breaks the hinge fast and not much push back, then the butt hits the snipe and drops so the top lands more flat. Non busted tops are easier to cleanup for the ground guy too. Haven’t mastered it.
What would be a good reason to use a narrow face on the ground in a non-logging scenario?
What would be a good reason to use a narrow face on the ground in a non-logging scenario?
SkwerI
Treehouser
A narrow face Humbolt is handy for dropping trees or spars where you need to get the butt on the ground quicker to minimize impact forces of the top. Narrow notch, some logs for bedding and you don't put a huge divot in the lawn with the top of the spar.
Burnham
Woods walker
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #308
In my experience, topping good-sized tops in conifers, to minimize the push back as the top goes over and thus minimize the back and forth motion of the stem you're riding, setting a narrower face than normal is expeditious.
The reason is pretty obvious...if the topped section closes it's face earlier in the fall, breaks the hinge and separates from the stem sooner, the time that the resulting opposite force bears on the stem is less. Less time pushing away from the felling direction means less initial movement in that plane, and that translates into less rebound...and thus the back and forth sway thereafter.
I don't have any reason to think a conventional or humbolt face is better or worse at this. I like a humbolt aloft, but that's just because I can cut it with the top of the bar easier than with a conventional, and I like sending the saw chips away from me whenever possible, cutting at chest high or higher as one does when topping
.
The reason is pretty obvious...if the topped section closes it's face earlier in the fall, breaks the hinge and separates from the stem sooner, the time that the resulting opposite force bears on the stem is less. Less time pushing away from the felling direction means less initial movement in that plane, and that translates into less rebound...and thus the back and forth sway thereafter.
I don't have any reason to think a conventional or humbolt face is better or worse at this. I like a humbolt aloft, but that's just because I can cut it with the top of the bar easier than with a conventional, and I like sending the saw chips away from me whenever possible, cutting at chest high or higher as one does when topping
.
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T Collins
Aloha Arborist
Thanks Burnham , that explains exactly my experience with the narrow angle face cut. The guys that taught it to me called it a "jump cut" and claimed that it could be made to spring the top farther from the base of the tree. I myself found that a middle angle face cut erring to wide angle allowing the the top to push back and wind up the spar, then once everything is moving forward and the top hinged and at near the face's closing ,full rev cut the hinge loose. I never got anything to sail as far as that one. The whip back wasn't too bad either. Other guys said that though minimal kerf Dutchman worked just the same.
murphy4trees
TreeHouser
OK,
so explain to us the reason for Stumpshot, as that's what got this derail going...
why is it used and what are the pros and cons that might affect when and how much to use?
How much stump shot do you use? do you always shoot for a consistent amount or do you vary it depending on the situation?
So stop the bs and start talking trees. I don't care how many languages you speak, I'd rather just see you pick up a saw and show us what you can do?
And your degree??? ya right... that right there shows your mindset. Many here know more about cutting trees than all of your college teachers put together.
And While I have a lot of respect for Dr Shigo, recognizing the huge contributions he made to transform the industry, he was not perfect. Science evolves and changes in all disciplines, but this holding of Shigo as some saint has really hindered the industry's ability to see his flaws, and take his teachings to the next level. The tone of your post reflects that entrenched attitude and is so prevalent in the industry that the large institutions are still printing pruning guidelines and recommendations that have been out of date for decades. Take an arborist like Blair Glenn. He's quoting science that has been out of date for 30 years and gets away with it. There is no one there to say WTF are you thinking dude? I met a guy recently that had been pruning trees the same way for 40 years. He would rather remove and entire 6" plus limb from the main stem of a mature oak that simply shorten the limb by 5 or 10 feet. That type of mindset comes from SHigos's teachings.
TARGET PRUNING is a bad teaching!!! for any live limb over 4". We should be leaving stubs or making reduction cuts. Shigo did not make it clear to the industry just how much damage a tree can sustain by making large pruning cuts on the main stem, but instead lead the industry to believe that a correct target cut is better than a reduction cut.
You're so righteous in your "knowing" that you simply cannot look at Shigo's teachings with an open mind.
Shigo made some suggestions that are completely impractical to the industry: ivory tower stuff, which is totally and completely unrealistic. Do you have any idea what they might be? would you like to know?
You want to go on talking crap.. go ahead.. you'll fit right in over here... You are nothing but some anonymous mouthy internet nobody to me, until you say or show something to the contrary. Your words mean nothing to me because you haven't said a thing worth knowing yet!
murphy4trees
TreeHouser
Let's get this straight...
the point I was trying to make is that the money I make from Youtube is insignificant to me. It would take over three years of youtube $ to equal the money I made in just one day of grinding stumps a couple of weeks back.
And nothing I have said in this thread or any other thread has been disrespectful to Jerry B. It's an honor to have his input on this forum. He's made a huge contribution to the industry and is a complete gentleman.
And it's not disrespectful to say that his book was written 25 years ago. While the information in that book is vast, and much of it timeless, there has been a lot of changes in the industry and advancements in climbing and cutting techniques that leave some of the information in that book dated. But that does not take away from the accomplishment of writing that book. There is still nothing even close that has ever been published. Thank you, Jerry!
The information in that book is so dense, that I still learn something just about every time I re-read any part of it. But I also have learned and developed A LOT of techniques that are not included in that book. That's the way it's supposed to be. We get to stand on the shoulders of giants!
murphy4trees
TreeHouser
well there it is right there... they didn't teach you that in college did they?
You're not even close, you don't understand the why, you don't understand the physics, and I do!
you want a narrow face.. check this one out...
this was published in 2011.. there has never been, before or since, the publication of such a large top being thrown so far forward from such a low height. You ought to be taking notes instead of talking crap about your trusted methods and degrees!
T Collins
Aloha Arborist
Target pruning is based on the evolution of the tree as a self sustained, resilient champion of time in its environment. Thus the healthy tree for purpose of greater good will shed a limb before it topples its stem. Just the simple laws of leverage and force dictate that the most strained point is nearest its limb collars. Evolution has made the tree most adapted to handle limb shed or self pruning at the stem not trimming 5 feet in, leaving a hat rack. Stump shot Mr. Beranek just got done describing but it keeps the force of the falling tree from sliding out the back door and off the stump. The better a falling tree stays on the stump the more opportunities there's for hinge and holding wood to influence (steer) the fall. Yeah if varies how much and why is used. I'm done with this silliness. I can have civil discussions with my sons that are bright young men eager to learn and ploy this trade as they go to college. Why do you have such a complex about people who get college degrees? What is your beef with discipline? Stop blustering please. Now if you would please go play in your conspiracy theory sandbox everyone could breathe some fresh air. Don't you even start some shit about how the air ain't fresh because of "con trails"
Now if you will excuse me I would like to get back to size of top relationships with face open vs tight and kerf Dutchman...
Now if you will excuse me I would like to get back to size of top relationships with face open vs tight and kerf Dutchman...
murphy4trees
TreeHouser
A 5 foot stub isn't a hat rack!
And target pruning is not based on the evolution of a tree.
It is based on the need to preserve wood value in timber.
Shigo started as a forester. If you look at all the early papers he wrote many included "decay and discoloration" in their titles.
He was looking for pruning techniques that preserved lumber value in forestry.
So all theories that support target pruning are based on the assumption that decay and discoloration are bad. As such because leaving a stub will tend to lead to more discoloration than a perfect target cut, stubs were frowned upon.
But no scientist ever had the 50 to 100 years to wait around and see of that discoloration ever actually lead to failure. You will never find one scientific paper that compares target pruning to leaving a stub and waits to see how long it took fr the tree to actually fail. That right there is one of the limitations of science. I have never heard anyone in the tree care industry question Shigo's mistaken assumptions, nor recognize the differences in decay.
Shigo's assumption that all discoloration is undesirable fails to make the distinction between the type of decay that leads to failure (which turns out to be cuts that violate the branch protection zone and cuts over 4" diameter on the main stem) and the type of decay which the tree can naturally overcome and survive indefinitely with. Trees grow, die off and shed lower limbs regularly in the natural world, without the need for a target cut. The tree sheds a limb, not because that limb threatens to "topple the stem", but because the limb is no longer providing enough photosynthesis to effectively contribute to the trees well being. At that point, the tree must compartmentalize the living tissue from decay that will result from the newly dead area of attachment. How it does that in nature is not with a target cut. Your statement " Evolution has made the tree most adapted to handle limb shed or self-pruning at the stem not trimming 5 feet in " shows the natural human bias from pre-conditioned thinking and failure to observe nature with an open mind. Trees will tend to shed large limbs in stages, over a period of 5 to 10 years or more. This allows the tree time to set up chemical defenses and start putting on new callous growth where it is needed. The actual physical shape of the resulting trunk will be much different in many cases. The resulting shape of the new growth around the stub will offer structural stability to the area of decay. These are things that you won't read about in some ISA publication. It's out of the box thinking, yet it is based on pure common sense, logic and observation.
your statements are perfect examples of the type of misguided thinking that results from Shigo's teachings and typical in this industry.
And target pruning is not based on the evolution of a tree.
It is based on the need to preserve wood value in timber.
Shigo started as a forester. If you look at all the early papers he wrote many included "decay and discoloration" in their titles.
He was looking for pruning techniques that preserved lumber value in forestry.
So all theories that support target pruning are based on the assumption that decay and discoloration are bad. As such because leaving a stub will tend to lead to more discoloration than a perfect target cut, stubs were frowned upon.
But no scientist ever had the 50 to 100 years to wait around and see of that discoloration ever actually lead to failure. You will never find one scientific paper that compares target pruning to leaving a stub and waits to see how long it took fr the tree to actually fail. That right there is one of the limitations of science. I have never heard anyone in the tree care industry question Shigo's mistaken assumptions, nor recognize the differences in decay.
Shigo's assumption that all discoloration is undesirable fails to make the distinction between the type of decay that leads to failure (which turns out to be cuts that violate the branch protection zone and cuts over 4" diameter on the main stem) and the type of decay which the tree can naturally overcome and survive indefinitely with. Trees grow, die off and shed lower limbs regularly in the natural world, without the need for a target cut. The tree sheds a limb, not because that limb threatens to "topple the stem", but because the limb is no longer providing enough photosynthesis to effectively contribute to the trees well being. At that point, the tree must compartmentalize the living tissue from decay that will result from the newly dead area of attachment. How it does that in nature is not with a target cut. Your statement " Evolution has made the tree most adapted to handle limb shed or self-pruning at the stem not trimming 5 feet in " shows the natural human bias from pre-conditioned thinking and failure to observe nature with an open mind. Trees will tend to shed large limbs in stages, over a period of 5 to 10 years or more. This allows the tree time to set up chemical defenses and start putting on new callous growth where it is needed. The actual physical shape of the resulting trunk will be much different in many cases. The resulting shape of the new growth around the stub will offer structural stability to the area of decay. These are things that you won't read about in some ISA publication. It's out of the box thinking, yet it is based on pure common sense, logic and observation.
your statements are perfect examples of the type of misguided thinking that results from Shigo's teachings and typical in this industry.
murphy4trees
TreeHouser
your statement about stump shot " keeps the force of the falling tree from sliding out the back door and off the stump" while correct does not indicate knowledge about the times that may be necessary and the times it may not.
In the vast majority of suburban backyard falling scenarios, more than 99.9%, there is absolutely zero chance that a tree is going to slide out the back door. At that point, we must ask ourselves "WTF are we doing this for?" And the answer is because we were guided by people that learned the technique from loggers. Did you ever bother thinking about that? No one here at this forum did until I brought up the concept.
And there are several reasons why stump shot can become problematic in precision falling scenarios. You don't have a clue because you can't read about it in a book.
ps.. taking out a large top with a kerf dutchman is a good way to die. the fact that you would put those two in the same sentence shows how little knowledge and sense you have. But hey, keep talking crap like that and about me and you'll fit right in around here.
In the vast majority of suburban backyard falling scenarios, more than 99.9%, there is absolutely zero chance that a tree is going to slide out the back door. At that point, we must ask ourselves "WTF are we doing this for?" And the answer is because we were guided by people that learned the technique from loggers. Did you ever bother thinking about that? No one here at this forum did until I brought up the concept.
And there are several reasons why stump shot can become problematic in precision falling scenarios. You don't have a clue because you can't read about it in a book.
ps.. taking out a large top with a kerf dutchman is a good way to die. the fact that you would put those two in the same sentence shows how little knowledge and sense you have. But hey, keep talking crap like that and about me and you'll fit right in around here.
theTreeSpyder
TreeHouser
- Joined
- Feb 12, 2016
- Messages
- 691
Stump Shot to me is to prevent back door slide on loaded axis from face side obstruction.
>> Of head hit other tree tops, ground or even face obstruction or even too early close.
Not something I'd do on clean separation and throw in tree, that might not use on ground when throw clean w/o ' head problems' but good safety and teaching to give cuz not sure what trainee might do on own.
Not as clean steer in trade, as sometimes has to peel away from stump shot as flexes forward into step of face per stump shot height.
>>if back cut to even with horizontal, face floor prevents this play and is firmer pivot to me.
.
From Benchmark gravity direction.
Standard face dynamic side has rotation arc, so uses both sine and cosine together I think.
Then slams into static face, horizontal, full force input down linear bounce up butt end as head travelling down (hopefully).
Humboldt arc input again but slanted static face gives less punch up reduced cos and some punch out sine individual operations .
(Separate cos/sin functions output linears from combined cos/sin radial input I think)
>>besides slide ramp deliver to ground for butt and 'face pie' slice.
Less need for stump shot unless high head hang early i think.
Or early close I envision.
.
Dutchman power is in horizontal bypass making face in face
>>not conventional slant bypass of flex within flex by contrast
In tree horizontal full face kerf close can give hop, or even just other very early close from vertical start mostly
Mostly tho, preferred standard face , angled both sides rear back cut leaving triangle setup if not outright trigger.
>> then race thru cut to pitch some enough to detach early, committed, and not pull forward on spar cuz detach so early in arc.
Done right got clean ninja detach w/o stem twang etc.
.
Trees are self maximizing, machines. Trees as species very long lived as tortoise , as both slow motion life clock I think. Can compensate for much, and have as they have changed the planet. Stobs can force not as deeply 'rooted' limbs and in over abundance. The multitude of different grain directions can not be maximized. In many ways seem more like codoms seam weakness to me, than correct competition to 1parent deeply engulfing 1 child branch per joint as more deeply ball joint connection dove tailed into grain, not seam or topical wannabes.
.
I've never stepped into any forum to prove anything, just offer view/help and share.
Thus a lot of this here, has always made me truly ill.
>> Of head hit other tree tops, ground or even face obstruction or even too early close.
Not something I'd do on clean separation and throw in tree, that might not use on ground when throw clean w/o ' head problems' but good safety and teaching to give cuz not sure what trainee might do on own.
Not as clean steer in trade, as sometimes has to peel away from stump shot as flexes forward into step of face per stump shot height.
>>if back cut to even with horizontal, face floor prevents this play and is firmer pivot to me.
.
From Benchmark gravity direction.
Standard face dynamic side has rotation arc, so uses both sine and cosine together I think.
Then slams into static face, horizontal, full force input down linear bounce up butt end as head travelling down (hopefully).
Humboldt arc input again but slanted static face gives less punch up reduced cos and some punch out sine individual operations .
(Separate cos/sin functions output linears from combined cos/sin radial input I think)
>>besides slide ramp deliver to ground for butt and 'face pie' slice.
Less need for stump shot unless high head hang early i think.
Or early close I envision.
.
Dutchman power is in horizontal bypass making face in face
>>not conventional slant bypass of flex within flex by contrast
In tree horizontal full face kerf close can give hop, or even just other very early close from vertical start mostly
Mostly tho, preferred standard face , angled both sides rear back cut leaving triangle setup if not outright trigger.
>> then race thru cut to pitch some enough to detach early, committed, and not pull forward on spar cuz detach so early in arc.
Done right got clean ninja detach w/o stem twang etc.
.
Trees are self maximizing, machines. Trees as species very long lived as tortoise , as both slow motion life clock I think. Can compensate for much, and have as they have changed the planet. Stobs can force not as deeply 'rooted' limbs and in over abundance. The multitude of different grain directions can not be maximized. In many ways seem more like codoms seam weakness to me, than correct competition to 1parent deeply engulfing 1 child branch per joint as more deeply ball joint connection dove tailed into grain, not seam or topical wannabes.
.
I've never stepped into any forum to prove anything, just offer view/help and share.
Thus a lot of this here, has always made me truly ill.
T Collins
Aloha Arborist
Daniel you and I are going to have to agree to disagree.
Pruning is a shock to the tree more like snow load breakage and wind damage. Trees have evolved to self prune during these type of hardships. The type of shedding that you are referring to is just that shedding due to the limbs inability to serve the health of the tree and is therefore shed in favor of growing new more productive limbs higher aloft. Leaving a 5' stub doesn't simulate shedding unless you wrapped said limb in some uv blocking material and force its presence to be felt as more of a liability to the tree than an asset. %Maybe if we took a weed burner to the outer ends of a limb let it recede any viable circulation back to within 5' of the stem leaving a stub like that would be sensible otherwise it is just not a practice that the tree is prepared from an evolutionary standpoint.
About a minimal kerf Dutchman. Well if the kerf is not cut terribly deep then it's properties and a narrow face cut aren't terribly different now are they? It's just simple trigonometry. May we stop going back and forth. I have personally never come out of a top and then pulled. I am always in the tree until after the top is felled so I really appreciate staying safe. Our practices are very different and I will keep to established practices as I have been taught and polished for myself, my health and that of the trees that I care for. Thank you Daniel.
Pruning is a shock to the tree more like snow load breakage and wind damage. Trees have evolved to self prune during these type of hardships. The type of shedding that you are referring to is just that shedding due to the limbs inability to serve the health of the tree and is therefore shed in favor of growing new more productive limbs higher aloft. Leaving a 5' stub doesn't simulate shedding unless you wrapped said limb in some uv blocking material and force its presence to be felt as more of a liability to the tree than an asset. %Maybe if we took a weed burner to the outer ends of a limb let it recede any viable circulation back to within 5' of the stem leaving a stub like that would be sensible otherwise it is just not a practice that the tree is prepared from an evolutionary standpoint.
About a minimal kerf Dutchman. Well if the kerf is not cut terribly deep then it's properties and a narrow face cut aren't terribly different now are they? It's just simple trigonometry. May we stop going back and forth. I have personally never come out of a top and then pulled. I am always in the tree until after the top is felled so I really appreciate staying safe. Our practices are very different and I will keep to established practices as I have been taught and polished for myself, my health and that of the trees that I care for. Thank you Daniel.
murphy4trees
TreeHouser
The change in your tone is much appreciated...
I actually love to discuss and disect the finer points of tree work in an intelligent conversation. A little respect goes a long way.
Differences in practices are often the result of different topgraphy and tree species, and size, as well as market conditions and how we get paid.
The practices I have developed myself and those that were adopted and implemented that I have learned from others have given me a competitive advantage in my market.
I've alsways looked for an edge and a nitch. Learning how to fall trees accurately was the way I did that for many years. There were certain jobs that I knew I could bid high becasue everyone else in my market would need to rig or crane out the tree, and I could drop it without leaving the ground.
My log loader told me many yuears ago that I was the only arborist around here that was dropping trees in tight quarters. Everyone else just cut them down to a short stick in an open yard.
Before the internet became a good way to learn, the arborists in my market were AMAZINGLY unaware of even the basics of falling techniques. I'd see it in the stumps and have worked with many contract climbers and other highly experienced local arbs that didn't know even the basics. I hired this climber once that had a little drinking problem, but man he could climb. For 12 years he had worked for some of the best companies in the area, high end fancy trucks, training programs, 6 crews, etc. I was amazed that with 12 years experience, trained by the larger, prestigious comapnies, how he could be in this business, and not even know the importance of cutting a clean notch.
I got back to one of the first jobs I put him on, looked at the stump and said to him "I know my guys didn't make that cut." He worked with me for a few months and I taught hom ONLY THE BASICS. He then left and went to work for Arader, who is another one of the biger outfits working for high end clients with 60 employees etc. He told me a short time later that he was the best faller in the company and they always put him on the bigger jobs that entailed much falling. I was like, ya, but that's a big company how can you be sure. You haven't worked with everybody. He was 100% certain, no question about it. That's the level of falling skill around here.
A 5 foot stub cut to nothing but a node, or maybe some little whispy sprout will do just fine (species dependent) if it has enough light. It's called retrenchment and is often a much better option for the health of the tree than complete removal, esecially on anything over 4" diameter. I have found this to be effective and especially when it's only done on one or a few large horizontal lower limbs. This is a teaching that I first learned from Guy Meilleur in his work on prunign after ice damage. It's always better to leave the stub cut back just past the tear or break, and allow the tree to use it's own intelligence to sprout or die off the limb. After hearing that and seeing Guy's slide show, I thought, well what's the differecnce between ice damage and Mrs Smith insisting that the limb be remove becasue she wants more light on her garden. So I began to talk my clinets into NOT making big cuts ont he main stem. And they listened. It was easy becasue it makes sense. Actually easier to get the point across to lay people than to those that are Shigo trained.
And after 30 plius years of seeing advaced decay from pruning cuts that may have been made when I was a kid, it's just common sense to avoid making large cuts of live limbs on the main stem, whenever possible.
And even when the limb is not going to make it, it's better to use "two stage pruning" which is a term that I coined, though maybe someone else came up with it before me, that I just don't kwow about. The idea is to leave a stub out well past the branch protection zone and allow the tree many years (sometimes 5-8 or more) to start compartmentalizing the wound and putting on callous growth. Once that growth is well established so that there is a clear unambiguous demarkation between the live wood and the dead limb, return and cut the dead stub off. That cut will not only be significantly smaller than a target cut, more importantly, there is zero chance that the cutter will accidentally or ignorantly violate the branch protection zone.
Now you could argue that a perfect target cut is better for the tree than a 2 stage pruning cut, and you might be right (though there is no science to back that up that doesn't depend on erronious assumptions), but you could never argue that the two stage method is worse for the tree than a pruning cut that violates the branch protection zone. And in the REAL WORLD any teaching of target pruning is going to result in a great many cuts that do violate the BPZ. That's where Shigo's ivory tower mindset was a complete blunder. He taught that we should always aim for the target. Given how hard it is to get that right even for highly skilled and highly caring arborists, that is simply not a realstic guieline. Shigo asked something fromth eindustry that is never and could never happen. And to my knowledge I AM the only person that has made this criticism of his teachings.
I actually love to discuss and disect the finer points of tree work in an intelligent conversation. A little respect goes a long way.
Differences in practices are often the result of different topgraphy and tree species, and size, as well as market conditions and how we get paid.
The practices I have developed myself and those that were adopted and implemented that I have learned from others have given me a competitive advantage in my market.
I've alsways looked for an edge and a nitch. Learning how to fall trees accurately was the way I did that for many years. There were certain jobs that I knew I could bid high becasue everyone else in my market would need to rig or crane out the tree, and I could drop it without leaving the ground.
My log loader told me many yuears ago that I was the only arborist around here that was dropping trees in tight quarters. Everyone else just cut them down to a short stick in an open yard.
Before the internet became a good way to learn, the arborists in my market were AMAZINGLY unaware of even the basics of falling techniques. I'd see it in the stumps and have worked with many contract climbers and other highly experienced local arbs that didn't know even the basics. I hired this climber once that had a little drinking problem, but man he could climb. For 12 years he had worked for some of the best companies in the area, high end fancy trucks, training programs, 6 crews, etc. I was amazed that with 12 years experience, trained by the larger, prestigious comapnies, how he could be in this business, and not even know the importance of cutting a clean notch.
I got back to one of the first jobs I put him on, looked at the stump and said to him "I know my guys didn't make that cut." He worked with me for a few months and I taught hom ONLY THE BASICS. He then left and went to work for Arader, who is another one of the biger outfits working for high end clients with 60 employees etc. He told me a short time later that he was the best faller in the company and they always put him on the bigger jobs that entailed much falling. I was like, ya, but that's a big company how can you be sure. You haven't worked with everybody. He was 100% certain, no question about it. That's the level of falling skill around here.
A 5 foot stub cut to nothing but a node, or maybe some little whispy sprout will do just fine (species dependent) if it has enough light. It's called retrenchment and is often a much better option for the health of the tree than complete removal, esecially on anything over 4" diameter. I have found this to be effective and especially when it's only done on one or a few large horizontal lower limbs. This is a teaching that I first learned from Guy Meilleur in his work on prunign after ice damage. It's always better to leave the stub cut back just past the tear or break, and allow the tree to use it's own intelligence to sprout or die off the limb. After hearing that and seeing Guy's slide show, I thought, well what's the differecnce between ice damage and Mrs Smith insisting that the limb be remove becasue she wants more light on her garden. So I began to talk my clinets into NOT making big cuts ont he main stem. And they listened. It was easy becasue it makes sense. Actually easier to get the point across to lay people than to those that are Shigo trained.
And after 30 plius years of seeing advaced decay from pruning cuts that may have been made when I was a kid, it's just common sense to avoid making large cuts of live limbs on the main stem, whenever possible.
And even when the limb is not going to make it, it's better to use "two stage pruning" which is a term that I coined, though maybe someone else came up with it before me, that I just don't kwow about. The idea is to leave a stub out well past the branch protection zone and allow the tree many years (sometimes 5-8 or more) to start compartmentalizing the wound and putting on callous growth. Once that growth is well established so that there is a clear unambiguous demarkation between the live wood and the dead limb, return and cut the dead stub off. That cut will not only be significantly smaller than a target cut, more importantly, there is zero chance that the cutter will accidentally or ignorantly violate the branch protection zone.
Now you could argue that a perfect target cut is better for the tree than a 2 stage pruning cut, and you might be right (though there is no science to back that up that doesn't depend on erronious assumptions), but you could never argue that the two stage method is worse for the tree than a pruning cut that violates the branch protection zone. And in the REAL WORLD any teaching of target pruning is going to result in a great many cuts that do violate the BPZ. That's where Shigo's ivory tower mindset was a complete blunder. He taught that we should always aim for the target. Given how hard it is to get that right even for highly skilled and highly caring arborists, that is simply not a realstic guieline. Shigo asked something fromth eindustry that is never and could never happen. And to my knowledge I AM the only person that has made this criticism of his teachings.
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Burnham
Woods walker
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #320
Since the thrust of this thread originally was to be sharing what taking a falling certification class from Doug Dent was like...I am wondering just what it would have been like to watch the interactions of Daniel Murphy and Doug Dent, should Daniel have landed in one of Doug's classes.
I rather suspect it would have been entertaining...
I rather suspect it would have been entertaining...
T Collins
Aloha Arborist
The fact is that I never was so fortunate to take a course from the man himself as Burnham had. In lieu of his presence in this plane I ask of you Burnham your thoughts on the kerf Dutchman and it's variants.
murphy4trees
TreeHouser
It's imporetant to understand that those in positions to train others in a field as dangerous as logging or arboriculture have to be conservative in order to avoid liability. It's clear that Dent changed his teachings on techniques such as the swing Dutchman becasue it was too "unreliabel to teach"... That doesn't make it too unreliable to use in the field, experiment with judiciously etc.
" So other than talking crap, what have you contributed? "
Instead of making a fool of myself on the internet, like you, I have concentrated on training the next generation.
A couple dozen of fallers, foresters and arbs have apprenticed with me.
Right now I'm introducing a young woman to the sawyers art.
You see, I can still do the job.
Unlike you, I haven't eaten myself out of any climbing ability you once may have had.
World's greatest treeman, but with bucket access only.
Instead of making a fool of myself on the internet, like you, I have concentrated on training the next generation.
A couple dozen of fallers, foresters and arbs have apprenticed with me.
Right now I'm introducing a young woman to the sawyers art.
You see, I can still do the job.
Unlike you, I haven't eaten myself out of any climbing ability you once may have had.
World's greatest treeman, but with bucket access only.
murphy4trees
TreeHouser
Stig,
you have made my point...
you have made my point...
murphy4trees
TreeHouser
There are a lot of reasons why the Humboldt is prefered in loggin scenarios. One of the main ones is what you have described above. When the but slides off the stump and hits the ground before the top, there is far less tendencey to crack the log, thus preserving timber value.
