Felling with D. Douglas Dent

[theTreeSpyder]

As I have gone beyond 'normal treeguy' (?) thinking ;
i try to keep it on the rails of sciences that work in all examples in the bigger sea engulfing tree work.
>> thereby most likely permeating thru.
i also generally demand of self to then show persisting stabley into: felling, climbing cuts/rigs and even bucking to all show same science.
For in general, trees are the largest, tallest CoG, heaviest, most rigid form of life to face off against .
>> largest, tallest CoG, heaviest, most rigid is a chain of maximized multipliers in comparison of any life form, virtually in any of those categories, we all know can try to think in chess moves, but it ain't no game!
.
In this range of raw physical force, any discipline must be somewhat conservative to exist, and are.
Keeping it in between known rails is most survivable.
>> tree work injury stats are full of those that don't, and are embarasingly high in contrast to other fields.
For me, this means cross-verifying , truing and growing instinct to maths,
>>that we are surrounded by in all else.
Then relying on that in trust but verify as can on job.
Also cuz some days, in a pinch, them instincts may be all you have with ya.

 

[pantheraba]

I agree...staying within known parameters that got established often as a result of someone getting hurt or dead gives the best chance of survival. Good description there, Kenny, of the potential that trees have due to their size and stability...when we choose to interfere with the stability of such a huge creature we surely need to be wary. Poking the dragon.

Your idea of "expanding" the box but not working outside the box is a good analogy.

 

[Bermy]

 

[theTreeSpyder]

As I remember the Dr. Pete Donzelli legend and MA articles, rumors etc. of the time..
He was an engineer that got into tree climbing and rigging etc.
He realized and climbed above a weakened tree part, rigged for RUN/ relief thru pulley block,
called for 2 wraps and run rope, and got a 3wrap catch instead from groundsman.
The weak part just below him failed from impact w/o relief.
Scared folks on ground brought tree parts to separate dumps,
Doc Shigo demanded them back for investigation, and pieced tree together etc.
Dr. Donzelli was around for our original ISA forum ( called BBS Bulletin Board Service in long of the day)
>> I remember it dribbling across dial-up, Mark, Tom started TB from the remains when ISA disappeared.
>> A lot of concerns at time of taking caveman image off of tree work, Donzelli gave some sheen and respect with taking it serious etc.
So can't really say Dr. Donzelli killed self in any version told I heard, but a sad loss, many other lessons tho,
>>like amount of friction change going from 2 full turns to 3,
( in any size round as this is about degrees, NOT distance, Porta-Wraps fairly new at time)
>> and how relief in a system can be greater than macho hold.

 

[murphy4trees]

I heard it was 4 wraps and he was side loading the tree.. lightning struck. way beyond his capabilities.

 

[stig]

Still ignoring my question.
Can't be that hard to answer.

 

[theTreeSpyder]

Murph,
Lightning does sound right, quite a time ago. i heard 3-4 wraps version too, only less so.
>>in any case poor orchestration with ground control was consistent point i heard
>>and with 3 wraps, even pushing into capstan/Porty, quite a lot of potential brakeForce for smooth slip i think
also guy was an engineer studying all this.
.
i know you take a lot of guff; i try to stay out of. Always been odd guy out, from the cradle, myself.
But that man was respected, liked, never anything official determination on this,
paid the ultimate price, from a hidden internal failpoint may have guessed wrong on extent of,
from a world we've all walked that everyday things are trying to kill ya;
and not here to defend himself as you are.

 

[murphy4trees]

He was in way over his head, should never have been in that tree and didn't have the sense to know it.

If he really did side load that tree, all the science in the world doesn't make up for a lack of common sense.

 

[murphy4trees]

I agree...staying within known parameters that got established often as a result of someone getting hurt or dead gives the best chance of survival.

The "known" parameters are there because people don't know the difference between what's possible to do safely and what's not, so they make up some rule that is safe no matter what the scenario. And much of it is just ridiculous.

take the 200% of the height of the tree clearance area for the LZ of any fall... That's complete nonsense in a suburban backyard, falling a spar with no interference. Yet that's the rules...

How about 10' clearance from ANY line, be it power or communication. you couldn't even walk through most yards.

Or how about not leaving stubs on pruning trees.. is there science to back that up... if it's there then show it. You can't because it doesn't exist. That rule was made up based on false assumptions that no one has bothered questioning... at least until I did.

And don't even get me started on one handing from the bucket

 

[SeanKroll]

Hahahahahaha

 

[Sven]

Wow, what a dink.

 

[T Collins]

What do you expect from the city that has a bronze statue of a fictional character(Rocky Balboa) at the base of its library and made up a ton of lies about how awesome its broken bell is. Tell me did you guys commission the statue of Rocky because it was the first time that you ever saw one of your citizens use the public library? Hey they can't all be stoopid in Philly... 200+yrs later and they figured out to commission someone who knows how to work in bronze... Your Rocky statue hasn't cracked yet like your defective bell, has it?

 

[Nutball]

A serious question Murphy, hows the youtube business going? Getting rich or what does YT pay out anyway? Just curious about that stuff.

 

[T Collins]

Crickets, wow!🦗🦗🦗🦗🦗🦗🦗🦗🦗🦗🦗🦗🦗🦗

 

[stig]

Another serious question, Murphy.
When are you going to tell us at which treeforum they actually appreciate your genius?

Come on, there must be at least one.

The greatest treeman of all time, the one who taught Gerry Beranek about stumpshot.
For sure there must be at least one forum where they love you and celebrate your extreme out of the box knowledge.

 

[murphy4trees]

I make about 125/month in revenue sharing from youtube. A week ago Wednesday we broke a record and did 4,970 with 2 men, and 33K in the first 2 weeks of August.

The only time I recall correcting Jerry is when he thought I was plunge cutting for the camera on the below video (that was in another thread that got deleted), whereas I've had to correct Stig and Burnham countless times.

SO telling people they aren't as good as they think they are hasn't been winning me much popularity on the forums. But while you all are so busy telling yourselves that you are the greatest treemen on the planet, I've done many things on video that have never been shown before or since and was the first to introduce many concepts and techniques that have contributed to the industry. I won the aerial rescue at Penn Del west in 2006, been invited to represent at the ISA international symposium, been on the cover of TCIA magazine twice, have over 10,000 subscribers on my Youtube channel and have done millions of dollars of work with no major injuries or property damage. SO keep talking crap. I've seen your work which you refuse to make public and it's mediocre at best.

So other than talking crap, what have you contributed?

 

[murphy4trees]

nd Mr Collins please answer the question:

DO you understand the "why" of your tried and trusted methods, or are you just doing as you were taught without a complete understanding of the many factors involved?

 

[pete mctree]

Well, I took Murph off ignore after all this excitement & surprise surprise, he still needs a checkup from the neck up. Back on ignore he goes.

 

[Frankie]

I do not have the skills/experience/expertise in tree work that the majority here possess but am learning ... Imho ,and correct me if I’m mistaken by all means, there might be a slight difference between a faller working in the woods and an arborist doing residential work with bucket trucks and bobcats using pull lines. Just my 2c

 

[murphy4trees]

That's been a huge problem with arboriculture in the US for decades. The so-called experts that set the standards are looking to loggers as the ones to learn from and adhering to their standards etc.

It's a much different game and for example, many of the hazards that exist in the woods are simply not present in the backyard. And there are so many more differences that lead to different cuts, and techniques. Humboldt vs traditional vs open face. stump shot is another... The sheer mass of large old-growth and second-growth timber compared to backyard suburban trees is going to make a difference in what you can and can't do. The presence of snags, the need to hit other trees in the falling path, wedges vs pull lines, the need to preserve the log from cracking, vs the need to preserve the lawn from damage, etc.

 

[murphy4trees]

Well, I took Murph off ignore after all this excitement & surprise surprise, he still needs a checkup from the neck up. Back on ignore he goes.

good riddance.

 

[T Collins]

There is no "huge problem". The sheer volume of trees felled in the timber harvest industry and the variety of trees worldwide harvested is the reason why arborists look to "loggers" for felling cuts. Mr. Beranek worked both in the timber industry and in the line clearing industry with some arborist work too. With the variety of knowledge that he gleaned from 1978-1995(approx.) he spent writing a great book. It's not a book exclusively for arborists just read its title.
Dude going after Dr. Alex Shigo and claiming false science is silly. Do you know why arborists for years prior to Shigo made flushcut and blew through the collar? I'll give you 3 hints, fashion, kinesiology, ergonomics.
I can tell that yes I understand why and the theory behind much but not all of what we do in the name of coexistence with trees. I will keep this as brief as possible. If you would like to venture into the study as I have it is simply CELLULOSE, LIGNIN AND APPLIED PHYSICS. I could go on about my degree or the fact that you may select 3 languages from which to have me teach you. The simple fact of the matter is that Mr. BERANEK has already covered most all of this cutting-edge that you talk of in his book and videos and done so far better than anyone like you or I could do. He had discipline in an age when that's what it took to convey a cohesive message. You are a fantastic noise maker a great self promoter, your self adulation and belittling of others shows you for what you are empty and self serving. You are not advancing anyone's cause but your own self interests and unfortunately we as a public have come to accept this as a norm and even went so far as to elect a president all of the same awful traits.

 

[CurSedVoyce]

Im thinking its time ol Murph got a time out.
Arguing your points Murph, is not correcting anyone of the caliber of tree man you speak. Only argument. You sir, have been the one more regularly corrected and then ignored since that thick skull of yours considers your rightiousness to be correct no matter. Your dick slinging and yanking does NOT belong in this thread sir.
Your demeanor towards those that are your seniors and have way more knowledge and expertise than you in just one finger is one of complete disreguard for their accomplishments and shameful.
Remember sir, you only recently even started to learn what wedges can and will do.
Because you have a monetary you tube following does not make you superior in your skill set. So just stop with the disrespect.

 

[SkwerI]

Ty, I was with you right up to the end, then you lost me.

 

[Pelorus]

Algebra / calculus & Physics were an abomination for me in school (eons ago). Ironic, given that dismantling trees is all about mental calculations involving vectors and forces.
Some days you get the bear and sometimes the bear gets you. But I'm always grateful when I get to go home unbruised and unscathed. Especially now that the bones are getting more brittle.