kevin bingham
TreeHouser
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hard to make money doing tree work in a gritty blue collar logging town where everyone has a chainsaw. Soft handed pretentious folks with money are good for employment I imagine.
Champion Trees
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gf beranek
Old Schooler
Great vid, Reg. thanks. I can see in the future you doing a a lot great things with that new 'drone' of yours. Actually I prefer "aerial camera platform" Drone has a bad connotation to it. But that's just me.
Sean, after seeing what natural disasters do around the world, and here in the Pacific Northwest, I'm not wholly convinced a clear-cut is going to mark the end to the cycle of life in a forest, as we think we understand it, anyway. Like natural disasters, I don't care for clear-cuts. They're ugly. But either way, be it a disaster or a clear-cut the forests always grows back. It's done it thousands of times, over and over, before we showed up. Fact, as long as we're on the subject I'll tell you right now, I'd rather see select-cuts and group-selection be the rule in forestry. Unfortunately we don't live in a utopian world.
Around my parts, during the mid 1970s through the late 1980s, GP and LP clear-cut their lands for 'export markets'. Pure short-sighted greed. They totally f'd it up for the forest, the fish and every one concerned. You can mark my words, "Export markets are the bane of forests around the world." and all other natural resources for that matter.
Politics and law are going to have to change to keep that from repeating itself. Don't hold you breath waiting. In the meantime, like Burnam, I trust and believe in good forest practice. It's the corporations that need to change their ways.
Sorry for the rant.
Sean, after seeing what natural disasters do around the world, and here in the Pacific Northwest, I'm not wholly convinced a clear-cut is going to mark the end to the cycle of life in a forest, as we think we understand it, anyway. Like natural disasters, I don't care for clear-cuts. They're ugly. But either way, be it a disaster or a clear-cut the forests always grows back. It's done it thousands of times, over and over, before we showed up. Fact, as long as we're on the subject I'll tell you right now, I'd rather see select-cuts and group-selection be the rule in forestry. Unfortunately we don't live in a utopian world.
Around my parts, during the mid 1970s through the late 1980s, GP and LP clear-cut their lands for 'export markets'. Pure short-sighted greed. They totally f'd it up for the forest, the fish and every one concerned. You can mark my words, "Export markets are the bane of forests around the world." and all other natural resources for that matter.
Politics and law are going to have to change to keep that from repeating itself. Don't hold you breath waiting. In the meantime, like Burnam, I trust and believe in good forest practice. It's the corporations that need to change their ways.
Sorry for the rant.
MasterBlaster
Administrator Emeritus
Rant on wid yo bad self!!! 
Does it still feel like you have gravel in your shoes, Jerry? My sensations have settled down a lot but they're still there. A tight sock helps to short-out the weird feelings.
Does it still feel like you have gravel in your shoes, Jerry? My sensations have settled down a lot but they're still there. A tight sock helps to short-out the weird feelings.
gf beranek
Old Schooler
Yeah, Butch, the rocks are still in my shoes. Not near as bad, it seems, but then after 11 years I might just be getting use to it, too.
On another note, my heart meds, or maybe it's just getting old, but something is making me narcoleptic. I can be wide awake one second and fall instantly asleep the next. Real scary driving. I've had to pull off the road a few times lately to keep from getting in a wreck. It's worry-some.
On another note, my heart meds, or maybe it's just getting old, but something is making me narcoleptic. I can be wide awake one second and fall instantly asleep the next. Real scary driving. I've had to pull off the road a few times lately to keep from getting in a wreck. It's worry-some.
MasterBlaster
Administrator Emeritus
You just might need to lay off driving a bit. Only do it when you have to, if you don't already do that.
Burnham
Woods walker
That's disconcerting to read, Jer. Have you talked with your doc about it? Might be a simple modification of dosage would both provide the desired treatment and avoid the bad side effect.
flushcut
TreeHouser
Go talk to your Dr. that does not sound good.
kevin bingham
TreeHouser
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I can't stay awake driving. I have a horrible time with that. sit me down anywhere and ill doze off. church, school, driving, the movies. its a pain in the ass. I eithwe have to be moving or sleeping. hardly any middle ground. when I drive long distances, I hit a wall about an hour in and have to pull over because I can't keep my eyes open. Ill sleep for half an hour and then I can continue on and maybe get 3 or 4 hours tops before I have to pull over again. I would rather take a 12 hour greyhound trip then make a 6 hour drive solo. I always let my wife drive. she can put on some miles and it doesnt faze her. I just knock out in the passenger seat.
kevin bingham
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when do you think good forest practice was started and implemented here. There was no Logging plan here when they razed the entire state. (which was for the domestic market I believe). Is there an example besides Oregon where the policy wasn't complete removal of every tree worth a dollar? you can't tell me there was any good forestry plan in place in California. if so how is there hardly more than a hand full of groves of redwoods over 200 years old. No natural disaster could have accomplished that. No natural disaster could accomplish what's taking place currently in BC or Indonesia or Tasmania. It seems like the forestry planning starts well after the initial razing and when figuring out how to get something other than an overgrown fire hazard is an absolute necessity.
gf beranek
Old Schooler
Kevin, it's that historically good forest practice has always been trumped by corporate greed. Another thing is sometimes clear-cuts are the best way to re-establish a healthy forest after a disease or insect infestation, and major fires. No, 'One prescription fits them all'. Good forest practice is more site specific than blanket rules can cover.
And while I'm at it I'll tell you this, too, you don't know near as much about the redwood forest, and good forest practices, as you may think. It shows in you posts. You never have much good to say about either. Well, other than to say it should be done right, and that's one thing we both can agree on. I hope, anyway. But your negativity about the subject precedes you. You offer no solutions are constructive answers to any of the issues. Rather it's all visceral emotion and response from you.
And while I'm at it I'll tell you this, too, you don't know near as much about the redwood forest, and good forest practices, as you may think. It shows in you posts. You never have much good to say about either. Well, other than to say it should be done right, and that's one thing we both can agree on. I hope, anyway. But your negativity about the subject precedes you. You offer no solutions are constructive answers to any of the issues. Rather it's all visceral emotion and response from you.
kevin bingham
TreeHouser
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you are right. I have just seen maps of what once was. I have walked through a few small groves if what remains. I have seen stumps. I do know quite well what remains of the forests of Michigan and do not see any evidence of true recovery. When you can get a ecosystem here that will support our state mammal (wolverine) then I may be convinced about natural forest recovery. But I am eager to know more. how can you offer a solution to what's been said and done? its not like you can just regrow 1000 year old trees. there is no solution to that. you can't rid the world of export markets and corporate greed. Its nice to talk about good forest practices now after the last of the significant redwoods are all but gone and the ones that remain are in virtual tree zoos. saved by a few crazies. The fight has moved on from the lower 48. the corporate raiders are now in Canada, southeast Asia, Siberia, the Amazon. What is the timeline for logging Burnhams 36 year old Doug Firs? will those be clear cut. will any of those trees allowed to live to 200? will the UP of Michigan be anything other than a monoculture of pines destined to particle board in the near future? will there ever be 200 foot cedars and pines outside of 40 acre tree zoos? Yeah I'm negative. forgive me. I don't see a solution for the corporate greed you speak of.
kevin bingham
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By the way, I am sure good forestry practice exist. I was quite impressed at the forests in Germany honestly. Or the amount of thought and care that has gone into it. There are still problems there. There is a collective care of the forest that runs throughout the society. Forestry practice in the states and Especially here in my state was a Complete clear cut of the entire State. They came through one they thought the trees would last forever. not to mention Wisconsin, Minnesota, Ohio. the South East can also be described as miles and miles of monoculture pines. looks like the UP in Michigan. might as well be a cornfield in Iowa.
kevin bingham
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https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.me...-plan-logging-to-restore-redwood-forests/amp/
good forestry practices in effect although maybe retroactively. thoughts?
good forestry practices in effect although maybe retroactively. thoughts?
gf beranek
Old Schooler
Back in the day, Save the Redwoods League, aka the crazies, consisted of the crust of American society. Aristocrats, railroad tycoons, oil men, Timber and Lumber Barons, educators, land developers, and politicians. Across the nation these pillars of industry and society pooled their money to buy up the best groves in the state from an industry that, for the most part, was willing to co-operate and give their pristine forest lands for the "cause". Maybe a better word would be "fair market value".
The groves they saved were not mere token patches of scrub redwood. Rather the redwood stands the League acquired were the best of the best in the day. The phrase the League used was "Park Quality" the Cathedral Groves. Forest lands that did not meet the criteria of "Park Quality" were not considered. As many timber owners offered to sell their lesser forest lands for 'fair market value', but the league wanted only the best. So rest assured what is here today are not 'Zoo Parks'. That's your pessimism, again.
The Founders of Save the Redwoods knew if they didn't act when they did the best of the best would be gone in less that 50 years. They pushed all their high society friends to donate the money to do it. It was nothing less than an amazing feat, and testimony, to the good that man can do, and from the least likely source.
Unfortunately greed is more rampant across the board today. But the League set one of the best examples (pro-active) for resolving the issue in their day, and today more people should follow their example.
The groves they saved were not mere token patches of scrub redwood. Rather the redwood stands the League acquired were the best of the best in the day. The phrase the League used was "Park Quality" the Cathedral Groves. Forest lands that did not meet the criteria of "Park Quality" were not considered. As many timber owners offered to sell their lesser forest lands for 'fair market value', but the league wanted only the best. So rest assured what is here today are not 'Zoo Parks'. That's your pessimism, again.
The Founders of Save the Redwoods knew if they didn't act when they did the best of the best would be gone in less that 50 years. They pushed all their high society friends to donate the money to do it. It was nothing less than an amazing feat, and testimony, to the good that man can do, and from the least likely source.
Unfortunately greed is more rampant across the board today. But the League set one of the best examples (pro-active) for resolving the issue in their day, and today more people should follow their example.
Kevin, it is a terrible idea to underestimate what the world around us is capable of doing and has done. It is even worse to use it as a justification as to how we should behave. Because a glacier can scrape a continent down to bare rock does not mean that we should do the same thing.
Humans are, allegedly, a highly intelligent species. I think it is time to redefine what that means.
It's nice when you're working with land that can grow back fairly easily when given the chance.
I remember logging step slopes in Oregon, the yarder would basically bulldoze the slopes down to gravel with the butt ends of 450 year old fir logs serving as the bulldozer blade. Climbing those slopes was Step Up 2/ Slide Back 1. Hard to imagine stuff growing back on steep, mauled terrain like that.
gf beranek
Old Schooler
When writing those books about the parks I did some in-depth research on the people that made it possible, along with hiking the trails through the parks, which took years and lots of blisters to cover. There's a lot more out there than most people realize, and rather than cry over what was slayed we should all be thankful for what was saved.
kevin bingham
TreeHouser
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so 5% saved from clear cutting is a success story? or is that a wrong number. Granted It is a much better number than what happened here in the east which is more like .005%.
