Back cut higher than face?

[CurSedVoyce]

Too High

 

[RIVERRAT]

A level back cut is harder to start moving but because it lacks a bendable strap

Thread goes back a ways.
If the tree has no favor & your pulling it over I would say the opposite. A high back cut takes more energy for the hinge to separate from the step. I have also noticed this when wedging a tree over.

 

[MasterBlaster]

I wish I knew where Justin was and how he's doing. His last post was in the windy thread...

 

[sawinredneck]

I miss Justin and his "understated" wisdom most days. I hope all is well with him. I don't think we will ever meet anyone that can say so much by saying so little again!

 

[RIVERRAT]

I think I have his number. If I come up with it I'll yell at him.

 

[MasterBlaster]

I just hope he's above ground and OK.

 

[woodworkingboy]

There has to be a practical purpose for that high a back cut, somewhere somehow, it just hasn't been thought of yet.

 

[flynhigh]

With pines my boss likes them lower than the notch right at ground level.

 

[Marc-Antoine]

Thread goes back a ways.
If the tree has no favor & your pulling it over I would say the opposite. A high back cut takes more energy for the hinge to separate from the step. I have also noticed this when wedging a tree over.

For this point, the problem isn't the hinge-wood strap itself but the relative positions of the folding point in the hinge and the place where the wedge is working.
This point was discussed somewhere in the House earlier.

With a level back cut, the wedge separate the sides of the cut just like the sheets in a book. Simple mechanic with a good leverage, the intended movement is almost perpendicular to the wedge's sides. So the work is efficient and don't loose energy to obtain the lifting force.

With a hight back cut, the wedge isn't well positioned to do his job easily (but we don't have the choice due to the wood's mechanical properties and the purpose of such a step): it should be placed on the line straight between the folding point and the rear of the back cut. It isn't the case and when we push the wedge, this one doesn't move toward the hinge, but somewhere above, in a tangential movement instead of a radial movement.
The result is a complicated use of the forces involved, a bad leverage and therefor a waste of energy. The upper side of the BC has to go forward and upward in order to move, not only rotate. You have to pound harder on the wedge to get the same effect, the wood takes more stress, with unwanted consequences in extreme cases like splitting and hinge busting.

 

[SouthSoundTree]

A higher back cut will force some energy to split wood along the vertical grain.

idk if that amounts to much extra.

Its possible to move some serious wood with the right wedges, right pounding tool, and right tool swinger.

I encourage residential workers to learn to wedge with safe fall zone trees, with the rope preinstalled that would have been the pull line, singin' John Henry. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hI0D44zYP-Q

 

[RIVERRAT]

For this point, the problem isn't the hinge-wood strap itself but the relative positions of the folding point in the hinge and the place where the wedge is working.
This point was discussed somewhere in the House earlier.

Again I disagree. If we are discussing a tree or snag with no favor that is being pulled over or wedged.


A high back does become useful at times, in certain situations along with the use of an open face cut. In wood like hackberry & live green elm. 2 types of trees that one can usually depend on a strong elastic hinge.

 

[treesmith]

I got a call from a guy I climb for last week. He had a customer with a pine, ~85'-90' tall, leaning quite heavily toward the house, with the whole back half of the stump dead/rotten. I don't know how it held as long as it did. I climbed up about 75' and hung a 1/2"x200' line in it, and nicked and laced off a dead limb that I knew was going to break and rebound on the portable carport. I then stretched the rope through a little scope of woods over to the neighbors lot and hooked it to my pickup. I pretensioned it, walked back and checked it, discovered I had too much tension, so walked back to the truck, clutched it and let it roll forward about 4'. It looked about right at that point, so I climbed up about 15', put a nice wide notch in it, then plunge cut from both sides to establish my hinge. I then raised the saw up about 5" and started a backcut. I cut just until I could see it matching with my plunge cut. I stepped back down the tree, went to the truck, turned the key and snatched it over. The HO didn't want the top to reach the neighbor's yard if it could be avoided, hence the high cut. I didn't want the butt to roll off the side of the stump and hit the carport right behind the tree. (And I wanted the vertical grain to hold until I got to the truck and started pulling.) So I opted for a plunge cut hinge about 2" above the face cut, then a step cut about 5" above that. Might not be textbook, but it worked.

 

[brendonv]

Kinda like Dan Murphys cut?

I'm wondering if there is an ideal cut you can use in that situation. Where you want to make the cut release under applied pressure without you being on the spar or near the piece

 

[Tucker943]

That's a Murph cut.

 

[woodworkingboy]

I like a high back cut when pushing with an implement, like the bucket of a backhoe, and the bucket isn't reaching so high on the tree. You can get it pushed over towards the lay before releasing it.

 

[treesmith]

Murph makes his backcut below the hinge cut. I cut above the hinge!

Actually I tried it again today. I was working alone, and had a gum to cut. I set a line in it and pre-tensioned with the Maasdam. I stepped up about 12' and made a face cut, then plunged from both sides to establish the hinge. When I made the back cut, it went. I half expected it anyway. No harm done. Just had to make sure it went away from the house.

 

[murphy4trees]

Murph makes his backcut below the hinge cut. I cut above the hinge!

Actually I tried it today. I was working alone, and had a gum to cut. I set a line in it and pre-tensioned with the Maasdam. I stepped up about 12' and made a face cut, then plunged from both sides to establish the hinge. When I made the back cut, it went. I half expected it anyway. No harm done. Just had to make sure it went away from the house.

That's awesome... higher or lower it don't matter that much... Its nothing but fun to make that work!

Also thinking of the below vs above question:
I've never used the higher cut enough to know, but I wonder if there is any possibility of the split occurring behind the front of the back cut (higher), and the saw getting snatched in the remaining kerf, which will happen on a high back cut that bypassed the hinge wood.. Probably not much chance, but it is a consideration.

 

[Marc-Antoine]

When I made the back cut, it went.

Too much tension on the line or defect in the wood?

Its nothing but fun to make that work!

... assuming the bypass holds enough time for you to climb down the tree and go in a safety area.
It's what worries me with this cut.

 

[treesmith]

Too much tension on the line or defect in the wood?

A little too much tension. The wood was sound. I figured it might go, so had positioned myself for it. It didn't go fast, just gently fell to gun. There's no way I'd notch and set up a tree next to a house without some tension on it.

 

[murphy4trees]

assuming the bypass holds enough time for you to climb down the tree and go in a safety area.
It's what worries me with this cut.

When a tree is a little too big for the DZ, its often a lot easier to climb a few feet in the hooks and notch and drop the top, than it is to take a few feet off the top. Generally that cut is made from the tree.. the need to descend before pulling is rare, caused by either overhead hazards, or an unstable trunk or roots.

 

[Al Smith]

The conventional method is with the back cut slightly above or in some cases even with the fall cut .A method time proven from the days they first put a crosscut into a tree long before chainsaws were ever even thought of .
Now I've seen rather unconventional methods of stepped notched cuts and the like but being rather old school I for one prefer to use the older proven methods myself .

Now just what happens if your trying to slightly tilt the tree opposite the natural lay .How pray tell could you lift the thing with a wedge with the back below the fall cut ? Say you had 6 inchs below ,you'd have to split out 6 inchs of hold wood pounding a wedge .I just don't know how good that would work .

 

[ClimbingFool]

Guess I'll throw in my two cents worth here. To be honest with you I have never had a tree fall any easier with a high back cut vs level. Hog wash in my IMO.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the higher stump shot was created back in the day because to many guys were getting wiped out by the log shooting backwards off the stump because the tree was hitting large enough barriers to force it backwards. When falling up hill, helped the tree from slipping back and shooting off down the gully,although it doesn't always work... and also when taking large tops. The sheer inertia of the top falling forward will shove the trunk back. The elevated back cut helps keep the top in check.

The higher the back cut, the more wood you have to break, bend whatever you want to call it and makes it harder to wedge, pull or just fall. Now don't get me wrong,just because I say these things doesn't mean I don't use a elevated back cut or that anyone else shouldn't use one. There's a time and place for it, such as the reasons I mentioned above, or whatever your reason might be. 90 percent of the time, my back cut is level.There is a point when the back cut gets to high and becomes useless and it becomes more of a snap cut which means you are going to loose control of the hinge. I've seen it happen many times in the South(no offense Butch) when working post Katrina. Some of the fellas just didn't understand why they were doing what they were doing.

If you can get a tree to fall easier with a higher stump shot than a level one, show me proof I'll be the first to spread the good word. All the years I have been around tree work and loggers, that has never been mentioned to me....I'm all ears...

This might raise a few brows....

Greg

 

[woodworkingboy]

Greg, without going back and rereading the thread, I think people aren't saying that a higher back cut has or may have applications to make falling as you describe (regular falling), easier. Some use when pulling, or pushing trees.... I said I used it when pushing back leaners with a hoe, so easier would be contradictory to what needs to be accomplished. More holding wood required.

 

[ClimbingFool]

Ahh ! hell I must have took read something wrong in there...Sorry for the red neck reply...lol I just wanted to start a good argument....... Thanks for settin me straight , Jay ...

 

[woodworkingboy]

No problem, Greg, you don't give many opportunities to be corrected, so I just jumped at the chance.