FireFighterZero
Captain Zero!
I dont care for olive oil anyway. Now peanut oil, thats great for me! Safflower oil too.
alternatives in land use
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One of my online soil students just sent me this link as part of our discussions on C:N ratios, sustainability in ag, and other subjects. It is from a site called www.amazingcarbon.com . The article she sent was "Nitrogen: The double edged sword". I noticed toward the end of the article that it mentioned that it was a slow conversion to change cropping methods. This fits with the comments I had heard from farmers in Saskatchewan who commented that the change to sustainable methods in the area required that you not look at your fields during the growing season for first 4-5 years. The article explains the reason that N is usually the limiting factor to plant growth even though it makes up 82% of the atmosphere. Unlike C, N must enter the plant through the liquid carbon pathway.
I will quit trying to explain this further now, so as not to confuse you and myself anymore. This seems to provide the science behind the use of green cover crops rather than the use of bare fallow methods.
I will quit trying to explain this further now, so as not to confuse you and myself anymore. This seems to provide the science behind the use of green cover crops rather than the use of bare fallow methods.
pantheraba
More biners!!!
Good share, Bob...thanks.
FireFighterZero
Captain Zero!
Please Bob, carry on!
FireFighterZero
Captain Zero!
From what I have heard Bob, it kinda depends on how intensively you transition to re-gen ag. If you sorta dabble in it or use what practices you can pull off comfortably, then yes, 5 years is not unrealistic.
If you are good at head long plunging, you can see REAL results in three, sometimes less. Those who dabble are less likely to stay with the program, and of course, federal crop insurance is a real road block to sustainability.
Some of the work Gabe Brown has done is nothing short of amazing, but he sold all of his tillage machinery and never looked back. Kinda like burning your ships once you find the new world.
Since we are starting with fallow ground this year, we will be using a full fertilizer rate. Our "full" rate is quite a bit less than others.
Next year when we crop the ground used for covers we will have to make a tough choice.
From what I read, modern testing practices have not caught up with re-gen ag. Some soil samples on land that has been utilized in this manner for years indicate that they need LOTS of nitrogen.
I gather the reason for this is that the current soil testing procedure does not accurately measure a soil's capability to produce a crop. It does not take into account the microbes and some of the organic matter.
Possibly this is one reason why the USDA, state, and private companies have been pushing high N rates for so long. By using high N rates for years we may have been shooting ourselves in the foot.
The more N that is used the less healthy the soil is and less likely that it will continue to raise adequate crops. A paradox, or double edged sword!
If you are good at head long plunging, you can see REAL results in three, sometimes less. Those who dabble are less likely to stay with the program, and of course, federal crop insurance is a real road block to sustainability.
Some of the work Gabe Brown has done is nothing short of amazing, but he sold all of his tillage machinery and never looked back. Kinda like burning your ships once you find the new world.
Since we are starting with fallow ground this year, we will be using a full fertilizer rate. Our "full" rate is quite a bit less than others.
Next year when we crop the ground used for covers we will have to make a tough choice.
From what I read, modern testing practices have not caught up with re-gen ag. Some soil samples on land that has been utilized in this manner for years indicate that they need LOTS of nitrogen.
I gather the reason for this is that the current soil testing procedure does not accurately measure a soil's capability to produce a crop. It does not take into account the microbes and some of the organic matter.
Possibly this is one reason why the USDA, state, and private companies have been pushing high N rates for so long. By using high N rates for years we may have been shooting ourselves in the foot.
The more N that is used the less healthy the soil is and less likely that it will continue to raise adequate crops. A paradox, or double edged sword!
Another student a couple semesters ago mentioned a new soil test developed by Rick Haney a USDA ARS researcher. Here is a link. It figures in soil health. Sounds interesting.
m.cornandsoybeandigest.com/conservation/new-soil-test-tracks-microbial-activity.
m.cornandsoybeandigest.com/conservation/new-soil-test-tracks-microbial-activity.
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #332
Are you starting with fallow ground or just not farmed ground? Are you having to do this all on your own without guidance and recommendations from those that have some experience in this?
Bob, that first link has good information. Jim, have you had a chance to look at any of those pdfs by Dr.Jones?
FireFighterZero
Captain Zero!
Yep, thats the one I heard of Bob. Good find.
Whats the deal with on line classes? You think I would be a good fit?
Whats the deal with on line classes? You think I would be a good fit?
I teach an online introduction to soils class during spring and fall semesters. It is from Dakota College at Bottineau, information on their website. It is geared to people working in the field, testing is whenever you wish, open book, open note, consult with your peers, just like on the job. I have several hands on labs and use info from the NRCS WSS site also. I encourage discussion such as the one from the students. I think I am going to give them this threads link, since it closely follows a lot of what we are talking about. I have one student almost done with the class already this semester and one that is just starting. As long as it is done by mid May, all is well in my world. Both are NRCS employees I believe, one from near Rexburg, ID and the other from Portland, OR.
FireFighterZero
Captain Zero!
Gosh, Dave, I have to admit that I missed the PDF's. I will go back and look for them. I apologize.
To answer your question, the cover crops are going on land that was previously cropped, in 2015. We are tearing out some old CRP ground that will be organic farming, but this year it will be all cropped. Next year half of that land will be covers. The experts are worried that we are starting too fast, we will have NO fallow land this year. I guess it is a big change, but I really dont see the problem.
As far as talking to people, aside from Gabe Brown and some other farmers from out of the area, we are kinda going it alone. As far as I can tell, we are the only ones in this county that are trying what we are trying. Not taking anything away from the loads of farmers that have blazed a trail before us, but those guys dont live up here. Our NRCS agent is excited as hell, no one else is doing this in his area.
We are not totally alone, like I said, the NRCS man is working with us and we are getting our cover crop mixes from a company in southern Montana. It is called North 40 Ag, look it up if you are interested.
We can buy the same mixes from the same company as they do, we just decided to ask some people for assistance. Thankfully I have been to enough classes that none of her suggestions are strange to me. We are working together well.
She told us the we are the single biggest order she has, so it will cut down on shipping!
To answer your question, the cover crops are going on land that was previously cropped, in 2015. We are tearing out some old CRP ground that will be organic farming, but this year it will be all cropped. Next year half of that land will be covers. The experts are worried that we are starting too fast, we will have NO fallow land this year. I guess it is a big change, but I really dont see the problem.
As far as talking to people, aside from Gabe Brown and some other farmers from out of the area, we are kinda going it alone. As far as I can tell, we are the only ones in this county that are trying what we are trying. Not taking anything away from the loads of farmers that have blazed a trail before us, but those guys dont live up here. Our NRCS agent is excited as hell, no one else is doing this in his area.
We are not totally alone, like I said, the NRCS man is working with us and we are getting our cover crop mixes from a company in southern Montana. It is called North 40 Ag, look it up if you are interested.
We can buy the same mixes from the same company as they do, we just decided to ask some people for assistance. Thankfully I have been to enough classes that none of her suggestions are strange to me. We are working together well.
She told us the we are the single biggest order she has, so it will cut down on shipping!
FireFighterZero
Captain Zero!
Well, Bob, if your students need someone to talk too, let them in here. I am about as green as grass, but I am eager!
I should look into what you are doing, more learning is never a bad thing.
I should look into what you are doing, more learning is never a bad thing.
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #339
Still sounds to me you are facing these big changes with marginal assistance. You are smart and if anybody can make it work, you can, but still, ballsy move.
I have been on the seed companies' web sites, both North 40 and Green Cover and was underwhelmed by their information. Being arborists, my wife and I most certainly have no ag background but are both seriously interested in what makes productive and healthy soil. Our focus is on trees obviously but the conditions that create healthy soil are universal...well at least global.
This is why all the questions and interest, thus the reason for the thread. The sharing of information, I hope, can go both ways.
FireFighterZero
Captain Zero!
Went to another meeting today, a fellow from Sask. was the main speaker as well as the NRCS soil man for Idaho, Montana and Wyoming.
The farmer from Sask was pretty good, but his operation was quite different than mine. He is still making great strides towards soil health.
The NRCS man was a great speaker, only went for a couple hours though. He got into the science a bit and it was good.
I had a thought the other night, we would never dream of running a piece of machinery into the ground and never maintain it. We had done exactly that when it comes to our soils though. Its seems to be time to put some maintenance into our largest and most precious asset, our dirt!
Yes, very much so Dave. I have learned a lot by talking to you and others on this site. In the brief amount of time that I have been allowed to interact with you folks, I think I have made big changes in how I view things. I appreciate your interest in what we are doing on our farm. I hope I dont come across as uninterested or arrogant. Please realize that if I respond somewhat poorly to suggestions or information that you and others put in front of me, it is not entirely intentional.
I believe I am handling this pretty well. I mean almost everything that I knew or thought I knew about the way things work has been challenged and found to be lacking. I think the majority of farmers are in or are about to be in my boat. It is a FUNDAMENTAL change that we are making and it is difficult and challenging.
I will admit that I am scared shitless about these changes. We dont have a neighbor that is farming and ranching with these practices that we can go and visit to get info and pointers. There are books to read and videos to watch, conferences to attend and salespeople to talk to but we have no real world farms to visit in our large part of the state.
None of the experts will share their failures with you. A failure on their place might be a win on ours. Thats their rationale anyway.
Any mistakes and disasters we make will be well earned, and costly. The experts can make general recommendations but there is no hard and fast rules. You ask if it will work and they say they are curious about that too! I would be nice to copy a neighbor.
I guess we are going to be that neighbor for others. The canary in the mine shaft. Other states have a million dollars to spend on these practices, a net to help people take the plunge. Idaho and Wyoming, but not Montana. They figure these practices are so important that they are willing to help people get started on the right foot with less risk so that others will follow suit. Others will be able to walk down a beaten path.
I sure hope we dont lose the sunofabitch, we could, and that is what really scares me. I guess if we do fail and lose everything, the NRCS can tell people what does not work up here!
The farmer from Sask was pretty good, but his operation was quite different than mine. He is still making great strides towards soil health.
The NRCS man was a great speaker, only went for a couple hours though. He got into the science a bit and it was good.
I had a thought the other night, we would never dream of running a piece of machinery into the ground and never maintain it. We had done exactly that when it comes to our soils though. Its seems to be time to put some maintenance into our largest and most precious asset, our dirt!
Yes, very much so Dave. I have learned a lot by talking to you and others on this site. In the brief amount of time that I have been allowed to interact with you folks, I think I have made big changes in how I view things. I appreciate your interest in what we are doing on our farm. I hope I dont come across as uninterested or arrogant. Please realize that if I respond somewhat poorly to suggestions or information that you and others put in front of me, it is not entirely intentional.
I believe I am handling this pretty well. I mean almost everything that I knew or thought I knew about the way things work has been challenged and found to be lacking. I think the majority of farmers are in or are about to be in my boat. It is a FUNDAMENTAL change that we are making and it is difficult and challenging.
I will admit that I am scared shitless about these changes. We dont have a neighbor that is farming and ranching with these practices that we can go and visit to get info and pointers. There are books to read and videos to watch, conferences to attend and salespeople to talk to but we have no real world farms to visit in our large part of the state.
None of the experts will share their failures with you. A failure on their place might be a win on ours. Thats their rationale anyway.
Any mistakes and disasters we make will be well earned, and costly. The experts can make general recommendations but there is no hard and fast rules. You ask if it will work and they say they are curious about that too! I would be nice to copy a neighbor.
I guess we are going to be that neighbor for others. The canary in the mine shaft. Other states have a million dollars to spend on these practices, a net to help people take the plunge. Idaho and Wyoming, but not Montana. They figure these practices are so important that they are willing to help people get started on the right foot with less risk so that others will follow suit. Others will be able to walk down a beaten path.
I sure hope we dont lose the sunofabitch, we could, and that is what really scares me. I guess if we do fail and lose everything, the NRCS can tell people what does not work up here!
FireFighterZero
Captain Zero!
About right Bob.
We are 8 miles south east of Chinook. On the map above, Chinook should be a little east of the dot.
Went through there on our way to Glacier about 2007. That skinny park (20 miles long, 1/2 mile wide) south of Havre was a nice spot. Montana is a state of extremes in both landscapes and climate. Spent night in a teepee west of Browning.
With the Indians thereabouts?
FireFighterZero
Captain Zero!
I have a standing offer to attend a sweat lodge over in Browning. Been a while since I have seen any of my Blackfeet brothers.
Yep Cory. Big rez over there.
Yep Cory. Big rez over there.
MasterBlaster
Administrator Emeritus
American Indians are the coolest. I'd be proud and honored to be a member.
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