Adventures with Apprentices

[T Collins]

I have a recent story about trying to "lead a horse to water and get it to (think)" .

I have a former ironworker friend that wanted to learn to climb but wouldn't use tree trade knots. He did a great job of removing a Hemlock that we rigged into a Dfir not 15' away. The Dfir had a block in the top and a redirect block at the base. The bull rope was NE treeline 12 strand 3/4" and I was running a 2000lbs rated capstan with a tow hitch insert mount and the front bumper of the truck tethered to a 3rd tree. The final pick and he stopped taking the time to tie a timber hitch and instead did a clove hitch. 28" dia. and 16' long what could go wrong. I told him not to but he insisted it would hold. I put light tension on the line. He cut the trunk loose and I told him to get clear. I hoisted the big piece with the capstan and wouldn't you know that clove hitch chased its self clean around the trunk and popped clean off the end. The trunk crunched the side boards on his trailer and the rigging line shot clean up and out of the block. Now I had to use the redirect as the picking block to get the darn thing off his trailer. Please share your stories. I have more because I hate arguing and so long as life and limb are safe and it's not a paying customer or neighbors property I think stupid should hurt the wallet of the stubborn.

 

[ruel]

I don't use a clove hitch on anything I couldn't manage by hand, and even then pretty rarely.

Once saw an 8' oak log roll out and land maybe 10-15 feet away from the guy running rope. Its bad for dynamic use!

 

[SeanKroll]

Cloves always get tied off.

 

[SkwerI]

I used a clove hitch once about 30 years ago, damaged a roof eave. From that day forward I decided if a knot needs a second knot to secure it, then it's not a very good knot. It's more like some wasted effort before you tie your actual knot.

 

[gf beranek]

Clove hitch? Secure the end and everything will be good.

 

[T Collins]

Mr. Beranek is the clove hitch ok when lifting cylinders like tree trucks vertically even when finished? I always used a half hitch or 2 and a timber hitch when lifting or dragging trunks from the end.

 

[T Collins]

Yes always secure the end of a clove hitch.

 

[T Collins]

Bad habits like unsecured ends is probably why building trades aren't allowed to to rope rig any longer.

 

[Jonny]

I learned the midline clove hitch specifically for sending a bottle of water up to the climber. Works great for that. Might be the fastest hitch on earth too, though I need two hands to tie it, it’s probably 1 second.

 

[gf beranek]

A good knot for that.

 

[Tree09]

Bad habits like unsecured ends is probably why building trades aren't allowed to to rope rig any longer.

I rope rig as a fitter all the time. Essential part of the trade.

 

[T Collins]

At one time most building trades spliced their own cable and rope or wire rope and line. Today the vast majority has shifted to prefabricated or manufactured slings and rigging. Don't get me wrong my friend has a good many a knot up his sleeve. So far my favorite is the equalizing bowline for bolt buckets. I just found folly in his use and insisting a clove hitch as an end line knot. I have 2 other shenanigans he has pulled if you want to hear those let me know. I think they're funny and humbling.

 

[Tree09]

Absolutely, i would love to hear them! It's true the actual rigging trade is disappearing because of lawyers and insurance agents, but parts still live on. I never did understand the trades love for a clove hitch, but i guess if you are only going to know one knot it's a pretty good one for what is required of them. The bucket hitch with equalizing bowline is a cool trick, some other ones i have used is the poldo tackle for leveling using only straps, and the boiler hitch.

 

[flushcut]

I like a clove hitch every now and again. Tie it and back it up, I use two half hitches.

 

[lxskllr]

Not a fan of the clove hitch. My thinking's alongside Skwerl's. If you have to back it up, something else would be better. I could probably count the number of times in my life I've used a clove on two hands, and almost all them were for securing a tensioned stringline, not for anything rope related.

 

[Tommy_B]

At one time most building trades spliced their own cable and rope or wire rope and line. Today the vast majority has shifted to prefabricated or manufactured slings and rigging. Don't get me wrong my friend has a good many a knot up his sleeve. So far my favorite is the equalizing bowline for bolt buckets. I just found folly in his use and insisting a clove hitch as an end line knot. I have 2 other shenanigans he has pulled if you want to hear those let me know. I think they're funny and humbling.

What is an equalising bowline? I love a Portuguese bowline as an obscure knot, and even though its not really a true bowline, I like the circus bowline for splicing. Not heard of the equalised version!

 

[SeanKroll]

A "square rig", as I've heard it called, of a running Bowline and half-hitch or marl can only load from one end.

You have to have a butt-heavy end.

If you're mid log, this could be an issue.




I didn't care for the clove, being concerned about issues, then watched Reg rig big on them.
Good enough for a mononym tree man, good enough for me.

 

[Tree09]

What is an equalising bowline? I love a Portuguese bowline as an obscure knot, and even though its not really a true bowline, I like the circus bowline for splicing. Not heard of the equalised version!

It's just a trick to finish off the bucket hitch. You make a slip knot with the standing end, then put the running end through the loop, and when you pull, it capsizes into a bowline. You must pay attention to how the tail comes out of the knot tho, one way it would be to the outside so you would have to reverse it. Sounds more complicated than it is.

 

[T Collins]

Absolutely, i would love to hear them! It's true the actual rigging trade is disappearing because of lawyers and insurance agents, but parts still live on. I never did understand the trades love for a clove hitch, but i guess if you are only going to know one knot it's a pretty good one for what is required of them. The bucket hitch with equalizing bowline is a cool trick, some other ones i have used is the poldo tackle for leveling using only straps, and the boiler hitch.

I have a keen interest in any trade knots you have and really appreciate your thread in rigging. I fantasize about building a cabin off grid using my capstans and maybe a couple of derricks.

 

[Tree09]

I use tree/ sailing knots at work and that is where i make life easy lol. I'll often use a tautline for doing pipes temporarily and being able to adjust them, that blows people's minds lol. Munter hitches for lowering stuff, or truckers knots for lashing stuff down. Use a marline hitch for dropping tools to people, and have even used a horse knot for lowering materials by myself lol.

 

[CurSedVoyce]

I have a keen interest in any trade knots you have and really appreciate your thread in rigging. I fantasize about building a cabin off grid using my capstans and maybe a couple of derricks.

Have you seen the Dirt Bag Cabin Thread?

 

[T Collins]

I call this one, "When your only tool in life is a hammer or I was just given a hammer and it's the most amazing tool I've ever seen in my whole life!"
First if it's my licensed company I would never have let this occur... Same ironworker friend has now succeeded at removing no less than 3 whole 85'+ conifers. I have been there for every one of them because friends don't let greenhorns climb alone! This has burnt up a considerable amount of my time. Now he has a "job " to go do, 4 Dfirs between a 2 story farm house and a cyclone fence. Their agreement is in exchange for the removal of the 4 circa 90' conifers the ironworker gets to have 2 flatbed trailers of his green waste unloaded that would have otherwise cost $100 each at the transfer station and he gets help loading all the firewood from the 4 trees (it was a lot of firewood). I find out that the they're biker bros and the home owner is a big time commercial electrical contractor in $eattle, now I'm fuming, why am I here doing this for free, I don't need the practice! I keep it under my hat and do my 2 trees like a pro and get 90% of everything over the farside of the fence and into the pasture. The ironworker was crashing the fence with everything, limbs and tops. Before we went up I told him it wasn't a race but he sure as hell made it one. The 4 bald 36'-40' spars that remained after climbing were leaning in every direction due to close proximity competition for sunlight. My 2 were leaning opposed to each other over the fence and over the house. Left with a narrow felling lane parallel to the fence, yet cut off by a cable line at a long accute angle. I dropped the first having prodigious side lean over the fence with a gaping (wide angle not too deep)face cut chest high to hold to the stump all the way down because it was a real banana. The ironworker fell his first spar that leaned to the fall parallel to the fence but 180° for my lay as we were working the 4 in a row from the outside in. He done good and simple a nice hinge. Now for the largest of the bunch, mine side leaning over the house with a 3/4" bull left tied in the top. I asked for wedges he said that he left them at home because he didn't think he needed them. I (more quiet fuming) carved up wedges from the biggest hardest limb wood while they bucked and loaded the trailer. With the trailer loaded with substantial weight and the face cut made I asked for the trailer to be backed up 8 feet out in the pasture. The ironworker balked and said that I should have this as a "pro". I(more quiet fuming) insisted on using what I refer to as a hinge stay line. I make my face gunned to the lay then I rifle sight the face and set the bull line anchor point perfectly in line and as near level to the hinge as possible. That "stay" increases the effective hinge width exponentially. My spar fell perfectly in its lane and lay flat. I was tired of all the BS and back talking. So I handed him his saw and said cut your spar the last one since you won the "race" and earned it. The last spar had a 45° lean over the fence from the desired lane parallel to the fence. I watched as he whiskey throttled a face cut never getting low enough to gun the sights. Then he whiskey throttled the back cut no wedge and wouldn't you know he won the race clean through the hinge! We all know what happens next... Lots of swearing on his part while I picked up the saw and bucked it off the fence all the while still measuring out multiples of 16 for firewood, because 2 wrongs and panic don't make a right.

On the drive to the "job" earlier that day I found my copy of D. Douglas Dent's book on his dash and asked if he had read it. He told me that he didn't have time to read it, but watched a bunch of YouTube videos.

 

[stig]

Mr. Collins, I have a feeling you'll fit in here well.
I'm already enjoying your posts.

 

[T Collins]

Tree09, that video was a perfect answer to Tommy _B's question, but what is up with the camera man's heavy breathing? Seriously I was a little concerned that it was going to transition to a fetish flick at some point! To not break out in nervous laughter I had to imagine the camera man wearing scuba gear or a Scott pack.

 

[T Collins]