MasterBlaster
Administrator Emeritus
Wow - what a waste!
what do you think of this cut?
- Thread starter murphy4trees
- Start date
- Replies 91
- Views 10K
gf beranek
Old Schooler
Indeed, Butch, I agree. The company (Louisiana Pacific) should have left it standing, and that's not in retrospect either. I felt the same back then. But LP was on a campaign, explained to me by the foresters, "To fall all remaining old growth on their lands. Convert it all to second-growth! They didn't care if the trees broke. Bucking chunks.
I seen the Rockport tree as an opportunity to pull off one of the biggest stunts in my career.
I actually topped out a larger redwood in Redway, along the South Fork of the Eel, but there wasn't anybody there to take pictures. That tree still stands today, without its top of course. Local folk shut that job down.
Win some lose some.
Now about the Bender cut... and Daniel M. I figured he would've chimed in by now.
I seen the Rockport tree as an opportunity to pull off one of the biggest stunts in my career.
I actually topped out a larger redwood in Redway, along the South Fork of the Eel, but there wasn't anybody there to take pictures. That tree still stands today, without its top of course. Local folk shut that job down.
Win some lose some.
Now about the Bender cut... and Daniel M. I figured he would've chimed in by now.
MasterBlaster
Administrator Emeritus
Nutball
TreeHouser
Wow, was that the wrath of Jerry? 
No doubt by request from the toothpick factory
No doubt by request from the toothpick factory
MasterBlaster
Administrator Emeritus
It was in his way...
pantheraba
More biners!!!
You know....Jerry looks kind of like Chuck:
Mick!
TreeHouser
Ok, the cut.
Every time you try to send a horizontalish branch side ways (without a rope) before it drops you have to be prepared for failure, if, as in this case, it means brushing a shrub, minimal damage, that’s ok. If it’s fences, roofs, or expensive stuff it’s not worth the risk, too many variables, weight, species, do that with a poplar (cottonwood) it’ll be on the floor before the back cut, on a spruce it’ll be hanging on on a tiny strand till you cut it and watch it land brush first and sprong right into what you were trying to avoid.
Every time you try to send a horizontalish branch side ways (without a rope) before it drops you have to be prepared for failure, if, as in this case, it means brushing a shrub, minimal damage, that’s ok. If it’s fences, roofs, or expensive stuff it’s not worth the risk, too many variables, weight, species, do that with a poplar (cottonwood) it’ll be on the floor before the back cut, on a spruce it’ll be hanging on on a tiny strand till you cut it and watch it land brush first and sprong right into what you were trying to avoid.
Jonny
Treehouser
Mick’s right of course. When in doubt, rig it down.
I’ve always felt Sycamore held hinges pretty well.
What’s the story behind those pics, Butch or Jerry? Dynamite? Did it just crumble when it hit the ground?
I’ve always felt Sycamore held hinges pretty well.
What’s the story behind those pics, Butch or Jerry? Dynamite? Did it just crumble when it hit the ground?
MasterBlaster
Administrator Emeritus
That was lightening.
"When in doubt, rig it out!"
"When in doubt, rig it out!"
Nutball
TreeHouser
Must have been the world's strongest lightning bolt
gf beranek
Old Schooler
That happened along the Howland Hill Road through Jedidiah Smith Redwoods. Amazing nature.
murphy4trees
TreeHouser
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #38
Just got back from Rhode Island... beautiful weather and some pristine (reminds me of my childhood) beaches tucked away from the modern world. Good for the soul!
I too was one of those kids to that walked into he saw shop for the first time at 22, barely knowing which end of the saw to hold, and up on the door was Jerry B's poster. Seeing that poster was like seeing the grand canyon for the first time. It was awe-inspiring!!! It's arguably the most iconic image in the industry,
Then reading his book (over and over again), which I can't even put into words how incredible the writing and knowledge are. And then better yet, being able to commune here with Jerry B right here at the house!
PINCH ME CAUSE I MUST BE DREAMING! That is how awesome you are to me, Jerry. And beyond being an iconic larger than life folk hero (humbly standing up to a system of mind control in the tre care industry) you are a fine man with a kind heart and great wisdom (in life as much as tree work) And willingness to freely share with others is huge. That's how I see you and pretty sure everybody else here feels the same.
And to the extent that I have anything to share with this industry, it is only because I AM standing on the shoulders of great men, such as yourself, Doug Dent, Mark Chisholm, Kenny, and John Grier.
Obviously I named this cut the side bender because of it's similarity to "the bender" (pg 175 in the FGTW). Both cuts use multiple kerf cuts without employing a notch. But the image on page 175 and description on page 176 differ widely from the cut demonstrated and discussed in the video. To call them "the same cut" would be like calling two knots the same knot because they both use exclusively bends or turns.
The sole purpose of the side bender is to turn a horizontal or near horizontal limb with the cut only. The series of kerf cuts are angled to induce a sideways movement, and staggered in a very specific way resembling the soft dutchman. In fact, it was the soft Dutchman that inspired with cut, not the bender. The side bender takes the Doft Dutch, minus the notch: takes it upstairs and turns it on its side, much as Kenny did with the taperd hinge many years.
The diagram on page 175 depicts multiple parallel kerf cuts of varying depths: all horizontal, facing downwards (from the look of it). These multiple downward facing kerf cuts are used to get the limb to "settle" with "slow movement". The very nature of this cut creates great potential for pinching the bar. The settling limb is going to pinch the bar if the saw is not pulled out quickly. The need to make so many undercuts to get the limb to slowly settle, with each kerf creating the potential for a pinched saw, is problematic.
That is not an issue with the side bender as side cuts have a great resistance to pinching the saw. The purpose is not to get the limb to settle (gently laying down on rooves and fences(as stated on pg 1760, but instead to create a fast-moving tip that gains enough sideways momentum to clear an obstacle, once the holding wood fails and there is speration. This fast movement of the side bender stands in stark contrast to the slow movement of the bender, which is the main principle and objective of the cut.
If you tell me you've used a similar cut to turn a horizontal limb sideways, I take you at your word. But that is not the purpose or methods described and diagramed in the book.
IN GRATTIDE AND WITH APPRECIATION TO YOU AND ALL HERE AT THE HOUSE!
Thanks again for all you support and inspiriation.
Nutball
TreeHouser
I call them relief cuts as I was taught. They can be used in any configuration as long as they relieve pressure and tension forces, though usually only used on the tension side. I assume of done properly one could pull a whole tree over very slowly without breaking much hinge wood by using such cuts.
I don't know how well it would work, but I thought about it yesterday morning when I drove by a big cottonwood leaning over an old parking lot. I thought how could you fell it slowly as to not risk damaging the parking lot. Maybe a tall thick triple hinge with many relief cuts in the face and back, then pull it the whole way over (not cutting so much it falls on its own).
I don't know how well it would work, but I thought about it yesterday morning when I drove by a big cottonwood leaning over an old parking lot. I thought how could you fell it slowly as to not risk damaging the parking lot. Maybe a tall thick triple hinge with many relief cuts in the face and back, then pull it the whole way over (not cutting so much it falls on its own).
Al Smith
Mac Daddy
I look at my avatar picture and the big oak stump .A large tree on the eastern side of the country .A mere sapling compared to the west coast .
Marc-Antoine
TreeHouser
No no no, certainly not.
It would explode on you, barberchair or other nasty behavior. On the tension side, you almost don't have the time to do anything as soon as it start to move, or not at all, just Bang! The front line of failure just keeps moving faster and faster, nothing can stop it, as the load increases drastically with the reduction of the resistant lever arm (intact fibers beyond the front line of failure).
However, you can play a little on the compression side because when the compressed fibers crunches, the compressed area widens a bit and can sustain more load. So a new balance in the forces can be attained and the thing stops moving. Cut a little more fibers, the neighbor fibers take the load, more of them, crunch too and make a wider pad. That stops again, until it goes too far and a major failure occurs.
It seems that Murphy's limb stops the side move and teared its hinge because all the kerfs were fully closed at this point. Nothing to give any more on the side so the gravity took it straight. More cuts or the kerfs a bit wider could have allowed some additional travel on the side.
Nutball
TreeHouser
If you cut the tension side without a face cut, you will eventually be left with only tension holding wood right?
If you keep cutting on the compression side I think the tension side would eventually stretch too far and snap all at once, but maybe the outcome would be the same as my sentence above. I just think the chance of complete and uncontrolled detachment is higher when cutting the pressure side right?
If you keep cutting on the compression side I think the tension side would eventually stretch too far and snap all at once, but maybe the outcome would be the same as my sentence above. I just think the chance of complete and uncontrolled detachment is higher when cutting the pressure side right?
Jed
TreeHouser
Has it occured to anyone else reading this thread, that all of us climber/faller types tend to have a rather serious gambling addiction?
I'll never look the same way again at the folks up the hill from me at the Indian Casino.
I'll never look the same way again at the folks up the hill from me at the Indian Casino.
MasterBlaster
Administrator Emeritus
I never gamble.
Marc-Antoine
TreeHouser
In the case of an usual limb (not a rigged limb, nor a well balanced free standing axis), the bottom is compressed and the top is stretched. In between, the fibers are less and less stressed as long as you progress toward the middle. Until a point (line actually) where the constrain falls to zero and then inverts to the other category.
Cutting fibers at the top or at the bottom only reduces the actual thickness of the layer of working fibers, but you find always the three areas previously cited, top stretched, middle quite and bottom compressed (its a continuous gradient actually). The global load stays the same, but less and less fibers are here to hold it, so locally the stress on the fibers increases dramatically, the maximum being at the outer fibers top/bottom. Top increases its stretch, bottom increases its compression, no matter where you cut. The zero line lives the middle of the limb to stay in the middle of the remaining layer of fibers. You can't suppress a category by cutting, it's only a progressive reallocation of the roles, driven by the quantity of survival fibers.
You can have only 2 categories, or even only one, in two cases (in a static scenario, no wind...). Either you have an axis standing near its balance point (COG over/under the wood area at the butt), or you hold it by a rope, a crane, what you want, in a way that the resulting force on the center of gravity is directed toward/inside the basal area. If you cut it with a laser sword, it stays as is.
The wind can do that too at some brief moment (redirecting the force, not the cutting !) but it's way too inconsistent and the effect keeps changing continuously.
In all the cases, the failure appears when the most exposed fibers are overloaded. The wood fibers can sustain twice as much tension than compression. But when they fail under tension, there's nothing left to sustain the load, while under compression the crushed material is still there to share the load. If you remove the crushed material by cutting, you just displace the crushed area more deeply and you still have something to press against. So the wood folds. It continues to fold until the most tensioned fiber's reach their max holding capacity. Then, you get a catastrophic failure.
The specie of the wood comes in play with the different fibers characteristics, resulting in particular in the bending allowed before a too much disturbance.
Shit, 2,5 hours left to sleep. I leave it there. Bye.
Cutting fibers at the top or at the bottom only reduces the actual thickness of the layer of working fibers, but you find always the three areas previously cited, top stretched, middle quite and bottom compressed (its a continuous gradient actually). The global load stays the same, but less and less fibers are here to hold it, so locally the stress on the fibers increases dramatically, the maximum being at the outer fibers top/bottom. Top increases its stretch, bottom increases its compression, no matter where you cut. The zero line lives the middle of the limb to stay in the middle of the remaining layer of fibers. You can't suppress a category by cutting, it's only a progressive reallocation of the roles, driven by the quantity of survival fibers.
You can have only 2 categories, or even only one, in two cases (in a static scenario, no wind...). Either you have an axis standing near its balance point (COG over/under the wood area at the butt), or you hold it by a rope, a crane, what you want, in a way that the resulting force on the center of gravity is directed toward/inside the basal area. If you cut it with a laser sword, it stays as is.
The wind can do that too at some brief moment (redirecting the force, not the cutting !) but it's way too inconsistent and the effect keeps changing continuously.
In all the cases, the failure appears when the most exposed fibers are overloaded. The wood fibers can sustain twice as much tension than compression. But when they fail under tension, there's nothing left to sustain the load, while under compression the crushed material is still there to share the load. If you remove the crushed material by cutting, you just displace the crushed area more deeply and you still have something to press against. So the wood folds. It continues to fold until the most tensioned fiber's reach their max holding capacity. Then, you get a catastrophic failure.
The specie of the wood comes in play with the different fibers characteristics, resulting in particular in the bending allowed before a too much disturbance.
Shit, 2,5 hours left to sleep. I leave it there. Bye.
MasterBlaster
Administrator Emeritus
Go to bed!!!
gf beranek
Old Schooler
Tension, pressure, wood fiber and trick cuts. It's all apples and oranges. Isn't it?
I must say, though, the end of a long redwood limb can drop a foot each time the curf of the undercut closes. Better be fast or you'll get stuck, and keep a firm grip on that saw because the risk of kickback is high when you're pulling a speeding chain out of closing cut. But play with it and eventually you'll be easing limbs down on things you don't want to hit too hard, or lay too hard in the rigging.
The issue of increasing tension in a limb to the breaking point is certainly something to consider. Take redwood limbs. They are notoriously brittle to begin with. As a mere scratch on the tension side can pop a 3 inch redwood limb off instantly. But a dozen undercuts over 20 or 30 inches can get the same limb to bend over 10 feet and still hold on. By which time the dynamics of the tension and pressure on said limb will have changed dramatically. Can anyone guess how it changes?
I must say, though, the end of a long redwood limb can drop a foot each time the curf of the undercut closes. Better be fast or you'll get stuck, and keep a firm grip on that saw because the risk of kickback is high when you're pulling a speeding chain out of closing cut. But play with it and eventually you'll be easing limbs down on things you don't want to hit too hard, or lay too hard in the rigging.
The issue of increasing tension in a limb to the breaking point is certainly something to consider. Take redwood limbs. They are notoriously brittle to begin with. As a mere scratch on the tension side can pop a 3 inch redwood limb off instantly. But a dozen undercuts over 20 or 30 inches can get the same limb to bend over 10 feet and still hold on. By which time the dynamics of the tension and pressure on said limb will have changed dramatically. Can anyone guess how it changes?
murphy4trees
TreeHouser
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #48
I'll venture a guess:
As the limb drops it gets shorter, as in the center of gravity comes in, therefore the force or bending moment on the limb is reduced significantly. Takes a lot less to hold a limb at 45 degrees than horizontal.
As the limb drops it gets shorter, as in the center of gravity comes in, therefore the force or bending moment on the limb is reduced significantly. Takes a lot less to hold a limb at 45 degrees than horizontal.
Jonny
Treehouser
Shot in the dark.
Pressure wood is going to see less pressure as the limb hangs more vertically and tension wood will see more tension. Maybe to the point where one can just yank the branch off by hand and toss or drop it. That same scratch on tension side would still pop it off.
Pressure wood is going to see less pressure as the limb hangs more vertically and tension wood will see more tension. Maybe to the point where one can just yank the branch off by hand and toss or drop it. That same scratch on tension side would still pop it off.
theTreeSpyder
TreeHouser
- Joined
- Feb 12, 2016
- Messages
- 691
i really like Marc-Antoine's descriptions and feel here from him watching so many hinges over the years.
.
i too envision the gradient slide from tension to compression MUST logically (perhaps counter-intuitively at first) have neutral point/range of neither between the 2 extremes
>>And, that rope fibers on tight bight would show same tension/neutral/compression gradient slide pattern
.
In rigids the distance between the compression and tension support is the torque leverage that can lessen the tension(if compression support, reverse if tension support column)
The compression stays same as is central pivot like pulley and input load hasn't changed>>therefore needed support not changed
>>inherits forces of the fight between leveraged load and leveraged hold that must be balanced or tree moves/falls
If not moving, then load side hasn't changed, and must be matched by tensions
>>so if tension/compression farther apart in same scenario (same hinge point thicker hinge)
>>then tension reduces cuz now has leverage helping more, cuz, if same leveraged load, then takes same tension x leverage to balance
so, compression same and tension reduced if leveraged length/angle increases tension hold's multiplier.
>>similar to 1000" on 1 side of pulley needs 1000# ballast for 2000# on pulley. If balast is 5x1 jig, it's tension is 200#, but pulley still gets 2000# to hold and ballast 1000#
Compression in fixed lean scenario only changed by change of hinge pivot compression point moved.
>>this will change loading angle/distance to change leveraged load to pivot, and to not move system must change tensions to match
>>changing pivot position in 1 move increases or decreases leveraged load, and opposite to hold tensions,as pivot is slider between the 2 extremes
>>and can't give to 1 side w/o taking from other, like was see-saw and moving pivot between extreme ends, can't take from 1 w/o giving to other of the shared length between.
Compression as pivot inherits both legs A>of the load and B>ballast hold of load, just like pulley as pivot inherits likewise both legs of pull (load and ballast of hold)
>>system orchestrates this on leveraged portions, while at same time getting the direct downward compression from inline portions of force
.
This non-leveraged portion of weight inline over the hinge, that we already know can be held>>has only it's nominal weight as force/not leveraged
>>so to me is like a storage battery, releasing from nominal loading to leveraged multiplier of same loading as tree rotates
>>the balanced inline portion isn't trying to fall, is happily balanced not wandering, until other forces pull it's weight from battery/storage and add to leveraged/moving force
Pure inline telephone pole is 100% compression, hang would be 100% tension each only equal and opposite force points (2)
>>side force only employed on non-inline, must break into 3 force points now , have both tension/compression ranges and nether in between on support side
>>not support side either 100% tension or compression of full surface
>>this can be very hard on containing device, trees are wonderful as can mostly handle this, many other things can't
Rigid devices trees etc. can create this 3rd point, and hold it if not overcome with side force
>>flexibles like rope, can only support inline to tension direction ONLY >>there fore can't set up the 3 force points(only 2) w/o outside help to create 3rd point
Compression side force pushes CoG and pivot away form each other, more out of line for greater leveraging or fighting to hold against constantly
>>tension side force more amicably pulls CoG and support more inline, to relieve, not aggravate forces more
Pulling grocery cart with 1 hand easier as pulls inline amicably, pushing 1 handed fight to keep inline; add other hand and stability is distance apart
>>pulling cart also easier cuz input high to low axle load is kinda pulling out of hole, pushing high to receive low gives side force into ground
>>for inline is unique singular column of 1 dimension, always 2 dimension of it's non/of leveraged dimensions, in cart is sideways and up down as traveling forwards
.
in movement must keep in mind Murph's changing position to less loaded angle from horizontal reducing loading, but now to more stretched and displaced fibers
>>this also applies to upward angle moving thru more horizontal/loaded(like felling) before tipping to less loaded angle
>>but also, remember E=MCsquared means speed of the motion is squared in it's force delivery to whole
.
Not all woods can go the distance of the forces we can calc in the geometry.
Volume of forces, can overcome the constitution of the tree as container and fail, barber chair etc.
>>like turning up power to full available force and burning up connecting device wire between yin/yang +/- forcepoints , overflows the wire container's constitution/boundariess
.
i too envision the gradient slide from tension to compression MUST logically (perhaps counter-intuitively at first) have neutral point/range of neither between the 2 extremes
>>And, that rope fibers on tight bight would show same tension/neutral/compression gradient slide pattern
.
In rigids the distance between the compression and tension support is the torque leverage that can lessen the tension(if compression support, reverse if tension support column)
The compression stays same as is central pivot like pulley and input load hasn't changed>>therefore needed support not changed
>>inherits forces of the fight between leveraged load and leveraged hold that must be balanced or tree moves/falls
If not moving, then load side hasn't changed, and must be matched by tensions
>>so if tension/compression farther apart in same scenario (same hinge point thicker hinge)
>>then tension reduces cuz now has leverage helping more, cuz, if same leveraged load, then takes same tension x leverage to balance
so, compression same and tension reduced if leveraged length/angle increases tension hold's multiplier.
>>similar to 1000" on 1 side of pulley needs 1000# ballast for 2000# on pulley. If balast is 5x1 jig, it's tension is 200#, but pulley still gets 2000# to hold and ballast 1000#
Compression in fixed lean scenario only changed by change of hinge pivot compression point moved.
>>this will change loading angle/distance to change leveraged load to pivot, and to not move system must change tensions to match
>>changing pivot position in 1 move increases or decreases leveraged load, and opposite to hold tensions,as pivot is slider between the 2 extremes
>>and can't give to 1 side w/o taking from other, like was see-saw and moving pivot between extreme ends, can't take from 1 w/o giving to other of the shared length between.
Compression as pivot inherits both legs A>of the load and B>ballast hold of load, just like pulley as pivot inherits likewise both legs of pull (load and ballast of hold)
>>system orchestrates this on leveraged portions, while at same time getting the direct downward compression from inline portions of force
.
This non-leveraged portion of weight inline over the hinge, that we already know can be held>>has only it's nominal weight as force/not leveraged
>>so to me is like a storage battery, releasing from nominal loading to leveraged multiplier of same loading as tree rotates
>>the balanced inline portion isn't trying to fall, is happily balanced not wandering, until other forces pull it's weight from battery/storage and add to leveraged/moving force
Pure inline telephone pole is 100% compression, hang would be 100% tension each only equal and opposite force points (2)
>>side force only employed on non-inline, must break into 3 force points now , have both tension/compression ranges and nether in between on support side
>>not support side either 100% tension or compression of full surface
>>this can be very hard on containing device, trees are wonderful as can mostly handle this, many other things can't
Rigid devices trees etc. can create this 3rd point, and hold it if not overcome with side force
>>flexibles like rope, can only support inline to tension direction ONLY >>there fore can't set up the 3 force points(only 2) w/o outside help to create 3rd point
Compression side force pushes CoG and pivot away form each other, more out of line for greater leveraging or fighting to hold against constantly
>>tension side force more amicably pulls CoG and support more inline, to relieve, not aggravate forces more
Pulling grocery cart with 1 hand easier as pulls inline amicably, pushing 1 handed fight to keep inline; add other hand and stability is distance apart
>>pulling cart also easier cuz input high to low axle load is kinda pulling out of hole, pushing high to receive low gives side force into ground
>>for inline is unique singular column of 1 dimension, always 2 dimension of it's non/of leveraged dimensions, in cart is sideways and up down as traveling forwards
.
in movement must keep in mind Murph's changing position to less loaded angle from horizontal reducing loading, but now to more stretched and displaced fibers
>>this also applies to upward angle moving thru more horizontal/loaded(like felling) before tipping to less loaded angle
>>but also, remember E=MCsquared means speed of the motion is squared in it's force delivery to whole
.
Not all woods can go the distance of the forces we can calc in the geometry.
Volume of forces, can overcome the constitution of the tree as container and fail, barber chair etc.
>>like turning up power to full available force and burning up connecting device wire between yin/yang +/- forcepoints , overflows the wire container's constitution/boundariess
