T
Tree Machine
Guest
She's the neck. She has the capacity to decapitate the head.Blaster said:
brendonv
Tree Hugger
Haha, that silky vid is a riot.
T
Tree Machine
Guest
Thanks, Brendon.
Before I started disclosing everything, we had an agreement regarding the future production of this reel. Anyone viewing it from YouTube is unaware of that agreement and if they go and produce and market it, I'd have to chase em down and have the lawyer send a letter. I would really rather any interest in this device come from here. When production commences, we'll use YouTube and any other marketing/exposure venue out there.
The agreement was that I encourage all of you to make one or two for yourselves, I gave you all the fine details. If you want to manufacture it and sell it, call me. With this arrangement we can get it to market at a reasonable cost to everybody. We all win.
As good as my lawyer is (he referred me to the intellectual property attorney) and the fact that we have had several discussions about this reel over the years (while demo'ing it on his giant oak), legal squabbles are just not the direction I care to go. For these reasons, I would prefer NOT to put this on You-Tube.
That reminds me, I still have a redirect sling up in his tree I forgot.
Before I started disclosing everything, we had an agreement regarding the future production of this reel. Anyone viewing it from YouTube is unaware of that agreement and if they go and produce and market it, I'd have to chase em down and have the lawyer send a letter. I would really rather any interest in this device come from here. When production commences, we'll use YouTube and any other marketing/exposure venue out there.
The agreement was that I encourage all of you to make one or two for yourselves, I gave you all the fine details. If you want to manufacture it and sell it, call me. With this arrangement we can get it to market at a reasonable cost to everybody. We all win.
As good as my lawyer is (he referred me to the intellectual property attorney) and the fact that we have had several discussions about this reel over the years (while demo'ing it on his giant oak), legal squabbles are just not the direction I care to go. For these reasons, I would prefer NOT to put this on You-Tube.
That reminds me, I still have a redirect sling up in his tree I forgot.
MasterBlaster
Administrator Emeritus
Very true. YouTube is definitely in the public domain.
And be aware that this entire topic can be made even more private by posting it in the Tribal Elder's forum.
Jim, you could (I think) email it to me and I could upload it to my site then post it in the TE forum.
And be aware that this entire topic can be made even more private by posting it in the Tribal Elder's forum.
Jim, you could (I think) email it to me and I could upload it to my site then post it in the TE forum.
T
Tree Machine
Guest
I'm tellin ya, the video footage is boring. You'll see exactly what I've described in the last 10 pages
As far as private viewing, why? I want to share with all my Arbo brothers and sisters.
All right. Here's a video piece I did when I went from the large base, to the small base, but before I put the clear, flat base with the hole through it. This is also before the addition of the swivel. I wind it up using a stick, note my wrist is stiff. The current version is that much smoother, the wrist-on-a-ball-joint, and slightly faster. This version DID have Nick's nicks, which you'll see in use at the end.
Try this
As far as private viewing, why? I want to share with all my Arbo brothers and sisters.
All right. Here's a video piece I did when I went from the large base, to the small base, but before I put the clear, flat base with the hole through it. This is also before the addition of the swivel. I wind it up using a stick, note my wrist is stiff. The current version is that much smoother, the wrist-on-a-ball-joint, and slightly faster. This version DID have Nick's nicks, which you'll see in use at the end.
Try this
MasterBlaster
Administrator Emeritus
Yeah, sometimes that stuff doesn't translate very well.
T
Tree Machine
Guest
Meaning?
MasterBlaster
Administrator Emeritus
Like you said, the video footage is boring.
-edit- That sure did deploy well!
-edit- That sure did deploy well!
Paul B
I dig hammocks.
that sure does reel in a heck of a lot faster than flaking into a rope bag!!
I am surprised it deploys off the reel, my gut feel was that it would take the reel up into the sky with the throwbay. neat stuff Tree machine.
I am surprised it deploys off the reel, my gut feel was that it would take the reel up into the sky with the throwbay. neat stuff Tree machine.
F
Frans
Guest
another person who doesn't read the entire thread......:roll:
No_Bivy
Treehouser
- Joined
- Sep 2, 2006
- Messages
- 6,459
T
Tree Machine
Guest
What bivy is referring to is at the end of the video it says "Now go buy one". As we all know, they're not available, but at the time I made the video my intent was to make them available.
It still is. I just don't know how that will transpire.
The marketing, of course, would be through the forums and outward. That's the easy part, we sort of have a jump start on that. The carriage is clearly ahead of the horse.
I guess as long as we're talking about availability, how much would we be willing to pay for one? A 180' roll of Zing-It is $22 and that's what would go on it. I wouldn't be willing to put a lesser line on, unless you want a lesser performance, and that's silly. This is a time-saver, and anything in our industry that saves us time, makes us money, especially if you can put it in the hands of a groundguy and have him be able to use it successfully, right out of the box.
Call your price. We're creating it here and now. Don't be shy.
I'm digging up more video.
It still is. I just don't know how that will transpire.
The marketing, of course, would be through the forums and outward. That's the easy part, we sort of have a jump start on that. The carriage is clearly ahead of the horse.
I guess as long as we're talking about availability, how much would we be willing to pay for one? A 180' roll of Zing-It is $22 and that's what would go on it. I wouldn't be willing to put a lesser line on, unless you want a lesser performance, and that's silly. This is a time-saver, and anything in our industry that saves us time, makes us money, especially if you can put it in the hands of a groundguy and have him be able to use it successfully, right out of the box.
Call your price. We're creating it here and now. Don't be shy.
I'm digging up more video.
F
Frans
Guest
um, this IS a public forum by the way.......I personally will honor your request, just wanted to point this out.
pantheraba
More biners!!!
First number I thought of was $85. If Zing-it is $22 and the reel is probably at least $10-$15...so you have almost $40 in parts. Then you have to make the modifications that TM has devised...guys gotta make some decent profit.
If it goes into production the producer will presumably purchase Zing-it in bulk rather than pay full retail for individual spools. Of course thee are different marketing strategies-sell ready to go kits or sell the gizmo and let anyone load it themself with their tangle string of choice. My gut says that $65 will cause a lot less sticker shock than $80. $47 for one unloaded. Really these are just numbers that have little meaning until actual cost of producing it are determined. I know a fellow that produces a specialty product-one with considerable hand work added onto molded parts. RAW materials are only a couple of bucks but he has about 1.5 hours of labour in each $69 dollar product AND he spent 25,000 dollars to have the molds made and a run of his neoprene parts cast- It takes a lot of units to amortize a start up cost like that.
H
Hobby Climber
Guest
At the time of this post there are were about 2267 hits from people who have viewed this thread and only 170 replies.
With that much interest in TM`s novel product, someone or some company should be willing to take it to the next step. Though many tree guys are handy and innovative, many more would rather just buy whats already made for various reasons!
That said, as far as getting a company to crank out a truck load of them, they would have to be assured that they`ll get there money back from there startup investment. A lot of good inventions don't get produced because of the high cost to make that product. That and the fact that the tree care industry is a limited market. Thats just how big business works!
TM has developed a quality product for sure. Because no ONE tree guy can front that kind on money to get this thing into further development or production, the items progression goes no further.
That sucks!
*
Modern arborculture is what it is today because those before us had the vision and were able to "Think Outside The Box" !
Many of us have thought of new ideas for products or a way to improve on old ideas. Some have also made, altered, added to, or otherwise modified our gear & equipment to make it perform better. Some ideas catch on where as others simply do not!
The problems in getting an invention or innovation off the ground generally boils down to:
1)- Where do we find someone who can produce our product/idea(s),
2)- Patton expenses & related issues,
3)- Marketing/sales/advertising/promotion,
4)- How can we safeguard ourselves from the company that makes our product (Design) from screwing us over and only looking out for their own interest, and
5)- What can we expect by way of compensation for our efforts?
How many times in the past has someone gone to a company or manufacturer, showed them there idea(s) & told that they were not interested? Then a year or so later, that same company is selling a very similar item to the one you had showed them earlier, (ie: retriever)! :what:
Even if you patten you invention, that does not stop someone else from producing and profiting from your idea. It just puts you in a better position if you decide to fight them in court. Oh, did I mention that court proceedings are very very $$$ expensive!!!
Even if you have a very good case, a bigger company can easily bankrupt you in lengthy court proceedings! Just not worth in the long run in most cases!
I just wish there was some place that was well connected and could take TM`s (and others) idea(s) and bring them to that next level!!!
Later
HC
With that much interest in TM`s novel product, someone or some company should be willing to take it to the next step. Though many tree guys are handy and innovative, many more would rather just buy whats already made for various reasons!
That said, as far as getting a company to crank out a truck load of them, they would have to be assured that they`ll get there money back from there startup investment. A lot of good inventions don't get produced because of the high cost to make that product. That and the fact that the tree care industry is a limited market. Thats just how big business works!
TM has developed a quality product for sure. Because no ONE tree guy can front that kind on money to get this thing into further development or production, the items progression goes no further.
That sucks!*
Modern arborculture is what it is today because those before us had the vision and were able to "Think Outside The Box" !
Many of us have thought of new ideas for products or a way to improve on old ideas. Some have also made, altered, added to, or otherwise modified our gear & equipment to make it perform better. Some ideas catch on where as others simply do not!
The problems in getting an invention or innovation off the ground generally boils down to:
1)- Where do we find someone who can produce our product/idea(s),
2)- Patton expenses & related issues,
3)- Marketing/sales/advertising/promotion,
4)- How can we safeguard ourselves from the company that makes our product (Design) from screwing us over and only looking out for their own interest, and
5)- What can we expect by way of compensation for our efforts?
How many times in the past has someone gone to a company or manufacturer, showed them there idea(s) & told that they were not interested? Then a year or so later, that same company is selling a very similar item to the one you had showed them earlier, (ie: retriever)! :what:
Even if you patten you invention, that does not stop someone else from producing and profiting from your idea. It just puts you in a better position if you decide to fight them in court. Oh, did I mention that court proceedings are very very $$$ expensive!!!
Even if you have a very good case, a bigger company can easily bankrupt you in lengthy court proceedings! Just not worth in the long run in most cases!I just wish there was some place that was well connected and could take TM`s (and others) idea(s) and bring them to that next level!!!
Later
HC
K
Koa Man
Guest
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #171
Mass production would be prohibitively expensive for an item like this, as good as it is, because the market is so small. For those that would like one but either don't have the time to hunt down parts and/or lack the skill to build one, maybe Jim would be willing to just hand build and sell them. I'm sure he could make one 10 times faster than someone who never made one before.
No_Bivy
Treehouser
- Joined
- Sep 2, 2006
- Messages
- 6,459
pantheraba
More biners!!!
T
Tree Machine
Guest
Very interesting conversation.
Businesses sell their product at what they feel the market will bear. When has the market ever been consulted first and asked what they would like the price to be?
Normally, we are told what the price is, and the seller puts it out there and sees if the market will bear it, or not. Generally, they will go as high as they see possible. Lowering a price is generally easier than raising a price, that is if the higher price didn't offend everybody to begin with and turn the market away.
So, we are the market, preemptively talking about a product that does not yet exist and for which there is currently is no manufacturer or seller. I have to laugh thinking about that, but as unlikely a scenario as it is, that's where we're at. And making progress.
Thank you, Stumper. That kinda summs it up. We'll battle this with creativity.
My intuitive price thought was I would pay around $50 for a reel WITH line, and would want two because shotbags DO get hung up in trees. A second reel keeps the evil down-time to a minimum. If you don't lose them, or run over them with the truck, they should last years.
Businesses sell their product at what they feel the market will bear. When has the market ever been consulted first and asked what they would like the price to be?
Normally, we are told what the price is, and the seller puts it out there and sees if the market will bear it, or not. Generally, they will go as high as they see possible. Lowering a price is generally easier than raising a price, that is if the higher price didn't offend everybody to begin with and turn the market away.
So, we are the market, preemptively talking about a product that does not yet exist and for which there is currently is no manufacturer or seller. I have to laugh thinking about that, but as unlikely a scenario as it is, that's where we're at. And making progress.
Stumper said:
Thank you, Stumper. That kinda summs it up. We'll battle this with creativity.
My intuitive price thought was I would pay around $50 for a reel WITH line, and would want two because shotbags DO get hung up in trees. A second reel keeps the evil down-time to a minimum. If you don't lose them, or run over them with the truck, they should last years.
T
Tree Machine
Guest
That would mean shipping them, too. Taking orders, putting them in boxes, address labels, managing the website, fielding phone calls..... The Tree Machine is not willing to, as said earlier, compromise his day job over this.Koa said:
As far as making them, I will gladly offer assistance. I can bang one out in about 20 minutes, using just a jig saw, cordless drill and a propane torch. Add another minute to put the line on. It really IS easy to make them, but only if you have the raw reel to start with.
It wasn't easy to start with, as I had nothing to go on. Research and development, and field-testing took a lot of time, not quite as involved as dropping a VOLVO out of a tree, but those costs are behind us, the R and D phase is over and that has become my contribution to Arboriculture. Now, collectively, the rest is up to us.
Intuitively, I feel it would be just as easy, and a whole lot cheaper, to start with the electrical cord reel to begin with, rather than have some new plastics die made and commit all that time, energy and money. I mean, the setup for the electrical cord reel already exists (I presume). Farming this out to China, also not a cost-effective option because, as Koa says, mass producing to a tiny niche market does not work in this manner.
The effort to cut off the top and bottom plate only takes a couple minutes, and that is freehand, slow and careful on the top lip, and the bottom plate even easier, as the vertical drum itself is the guide fence for jigsaw. I hate the waste (I was seeking a no-waste version with the Koa model), but that plastic is probably recyclable.
After the first two cuts, there is contour sanding, fire-polishing, adhering the flat plate to the bottom with the industrial rubber sealant/adhesive, add the swivel. The line needs to be put on before the glue-up and installation of the bottom plate. Spinning the reel using a drill would allow the line to go on in seconds and also allow one to easily do the contour sanding on the upper lip with sandpaper on a block.
If proper jigs were set up to facilitate the procedure, I feel that one man in small 'U' shaped work station could do them, beginning to end in 10 minutes. I know this because I (one man)can make them without the 'U' shaped work station and without the jigs in 20. They could be boxed while the moisture-cure adhesive is setting up.
Maybe we could pitch this to The Discovery Channel on their "How Things are Made". The actual firing of the BigShot and rope-setting is interesting to see for just about anyone.
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