MasterBlaster
Administrator Emeritus
I see that way.
Tree felling vids
- Thread starter Reddog
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Burnham
Woods walker
Yes, Gary...shotgunning for me sounds like maybe similar to your cuz Noah.
More or less, if I point my Berretta at it, I hit it far more often than I do not. Not every time, no way, but a high percentage. I do that if I haven't picked up the Silver Hawk in two years, and get better after a box of shells or two.
Though hand gunning flying ducks would most likely be another order of magnitude along the scale, beyond me I suspect.
I really believe it's a just a simple unearned way with things, a gift, nothing to brag on or claim some sort of high skill over.
Stig once told me that as relatively few trees as I felled, over my career in the woods, just focusing on hazards trees, not production logging...that I must be an unusual talent to both understand what makes trees do what they do when a chainsaw is applied to them, and to be able to produce generally clean, accurate cuts.
I think the latter is clearly due to unearned natural skill at seeing level, being able to perceive how a deeply buried tip of a 36 inch bar is moving and to what point, all that hard to explain, and harder yet to teach another how to do, stuff with a chainsaw.
The former, I really think is the result of having had really good teachers myself, and maybe being blessed with a bit more than average analytic ability and inclination.
More or less, if I point my Berretta at it, I hit it far more often than I do not. Not every time, no way, but a high percentage. I do that if I haven't picked up the Silver Hawk in two years, and get better after a box of shells or two.
Though hand gunning flying ducks would most likely be another order of magnitude along the scale, beyond me I suspect.
I really believe it's a just a simple unearned way with things, a gift, nothing to brag on or claim some sort of high skill over.
Stig once told me that as relatively few trees as I felled, over my career in the woods, just focusing on hazards trees, not production logging...that I must be an unusual talent to both understand what makes trees do what they do when a chainsaw is applied to them, and to be able to produce generally clean, accurate cuts.
I think the latter is clearly due to unearned natural skill at seeing level, being able to perceive how a deeply buried tip of a 36 inch bar is moving and to what point, all that hard to explain, and harder yet to teach another how to do, stuff with a chainsaw.
The former, I really think is the result of having had really good teachers myself, and maybe being blessed with a bit more than average analytic ability and inclination.
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woodslinger
TreeHouser
I have a hell of a time getting my bar level, that's why I never video myself cutting a notch. It looks like a child scribbled on the tree until I get it right and cut the rest of notch out and fine tune it. Then it looks fantastic as I have cut out all the bad attempts. I have had some awfully un-level hinges in the past, they still held and put the tree where it needed to be, but they were sure ugly. If they were taller trees it would have made a difference.
SouthSoundTree-
TreeHouser
- Joined
- Sep 24, 2014
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A good vestibular system, and spatial-relational intelligence goes a long way.
Unconciously incompetent... conciously incompetent... conciously competent ... unconciously competent. Repetition, Repetition, Repetition, like shooting baskets, but rather than going from 3' from the basket to 3 pointers to half-court shots, sawyers go from way less than bar-length, to bar length, to double bar length, to triple bar length.
$0.02
Chris, do you have an effective length of dogs on your saw? They go a long way to avoid beaver-chewed facecuts.
My take on it, the more you do it wrong, the harder to break the habit. I got better at face-cutting by cutting a little, stopping, and seeing if I'm on track. If not, I stopped and tried again. Build the good muscle memory, not the bad. You don't want to build bad habits at the free-throw line, if you want to be 90% shooter.
Starting in a forest means more likelihood of only having slots to hit, rather than a more open lawn with a spar. Residentially, people often have a choice to chunk stuff down until its shorter than critical targets, until they are good at felling. Customers expect it, I think.
Maybe set one of these on your bar http://www.homedepot.com/p/Kapro-1-...u1zw5dxmz5LR6j04-VwLBhoCUSzw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds. Find the neutral position. Feel it in your body. Don't move your feet. Move your saw, and try to reset by feel, then check the level. Calibrating your brain-body feel.
A plumb-bob is useful for reading lean. You can also hang your ax handle from a raised arm as a plumb-bob. . This PB can be corded ear plugs, with a stick as extra weight if needed. I prefer the braided cord on Silencio silicone plugs. More comfy, and don't grab onto my neck and pull from my ear. The braided cord doesn't hold memory like a solid plastic cord, hanging more plumb.
As always, FWIW.
Unconciously incompetent... conciously incompetent... conciously competent ... unconciously competent. Repetition, Repetition, Repetition, like shooting baskets, but rather than going from 3' from the basket to 3 pointers to half-court shots, sawyers go from way less than bar-length, to bar length, to double bar length, to triple bar length.
$0.02
Chris, do you have an effective length of dogs on your saw? They go a long way to avoid beaver-chewed facecuts.
My take on it, the more you do it wrong, the harder to break the habit. I got better at face-cutting by cutting a little, stopping, and seeing if I'm on track. If not, I stopped and tried again. Build the good muscle memory, not the bad. You don't want to build bad habits at the free-throw line, if you want to be 90% shooter.
Starting in a forest means more likelihood of only having slots to hit, rather than a more open lawn with a spar. Residentially, people often have a choice to chunk stuff down until its shorter than critical targets, until they are good at felling. Customers expect it, I think.
Maybe set one of these on your bar http://www.homedepot.com/p/Kapro-1-...u1zw5dxmz5LR6j04-VwLBhoCUSzw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds. Find the neutral position. Feel it in your body. Don't move your feet. Move your saw, and try to reset by feel, then check the level. Calibrating your brain-body feel.
A plumb-bob is useful for reading lean. You can also hang your ax handle from a raised arm as a plumb-bob. . This PB can be corded ear plugs, with a stick as extra weight if needed. I prefer the braided cord on Silencio silicone plugs. More comfy, and don't grab onto my neck and pull from my ear. The braided cord doesn't hold memory like a solid plastic cord, hanging more plumb.
As always, FWIW.
Jed
TreeHouser
Wow, Gary!! I am deeply honored, sir. Funny that you and Chris should feel the same way I do... I remember having the identical conversation with Burnham at flip-fest. I absolutely SUCK at holding the bar level, and I've tried EVERYTHING and then some. I glued a bi-directional level to my fly-wheel cover years ago. I've carried a marble around with me to balance on the bar. I've "cleaned" out my cuts with throttle pulses till I could see daylight right through the cut just for the sake of lining up my back or diagonal cut with the initial one. The marble is the only thing that helped. I'll just stand there in the yard, and balance a marble on the guide bar, and then try to "record," how the bar-tip looks in my mind, and how the handle-bar feels in my hands. I'd do this with the motorhead both ways. (Regular, and Full Wrap). Now that helped me out a bit. I still suck on steep ground. When I'm on bad ground, I try to imagine what "level" looks like, and then overcompensate with both "roll" and "tilt". Odd thing is... it usually comes out pretty close. Clear as mud, eh?
Good to see you looking up at the top of those dead trees, Gary. Really well cut too. Nice fall.
Good to see you looking up at the top of those dead trees, Gary. Really well cut too. Nice fall.
Limbrat
TreeHouser
Just reading that gives me a headache so I guess that means I ain't got it.
woodslinger
TreeHouser
Good points, Sean, I used to cut where I thought it was level, then laugh at how far off I was later. Now I cut a little, check it, ask for a second opinion, etc. I move down a smidge with each correction so all the trial and errors come out with the notch wedge. I have gotten better at it, especially at noticing sooner that I am off so I can correct easily.
Jed, I cannot believe you struggle with how your hinge pics look. They are a thing of beauty.
Jed, I cannot believe you struggle with how your hinge pics look. They are a thing of beauty.
SouthSoundTree-
TreeHouser
- Joined
- Sep 24, 2014
- Messages
- 4,941
NO chicken-winging the saw.
Think of it like in rock climbing on a steep wall...straight arms, mostly, adjust your body, bear the weight on your frame, stabilize as possible, least effort possible.
Normally, I'll rest the pistol grip in my right hip, wrap handle always held at the balance point unless cutting off-level, left elbow straight, leaning back a bit. People hold off the balance point of the wrap handle too often, resulting in effort being required to twist the saw back to horizontal.
If you have half wraps, cut from the "good" side of the tree or back-chain into the horizontal. It I'm doing this with my 1/2 wrap 361, I'll often flip over to finish, then pivot on the dog for the slope cut.
You should video your face cutting, and analyze.
I'd skip asking for an outside opinion. Observe, decide, cut, analyze. It's all there for you.
I used to always undercut my sloping cut when I started cutting. I realized I needed to move forward a few inches with my feet, and concisely know I chronically undercut, so I adjusted.
Consistency is one thing, accuracy another. Easier to correct a consistent mistake. I guess that if shooting a gun, you were always high and right 8", you could fix it easier than if you were out by 4" but all over.
Think of it like in rock climbing on a steep wall...straight arms, mostly, adjust your body, bear the weight on your frame, stabilize as possible, least effort possible.
Normally, I'll rest the pistol grip in my right hip, wrap handle always held at the balance point unless cutting off-level, left elbow straight, leaning back a bit. People hold off the balance point of the wrap handle too often, resulting in effort being required to twist the saw back to horizontal.
If you have half wraps, cut from the "good" side of the tree or back-chain into the horizontal. It I'm doing this with my 1/2 wrap 361, I'll often flip over to finish, then pivot on the dog for the slope cut.
You should video your face cutting, and analyze.
I'd skip asking for an outside opinion. Observe, decide, cut, analyze. It's all there for you.
I used to always undercut my sloping cut when I started cutting. I realized I needed to move forward a few inches with my feet, and concisely know I chronically undercut, so I adjusted.
Consistency is one thing, accuracy another. Easier to correct a consistent mistake. I guess that if shooting a gun, you were always high and right 8", you could fix it easier than if you were out by 4" but all over.
Burnham
Woods walker
A couple of very good posts here, Sean. You write it pretty close to how I think it, but far more clearly 
.
.
Jed
TreeHouser
Yup... That's what Burnham told me at flip-fest.
"If you're missing 'near,' adjust accordingly. If you're missing 'far,' adjust accordingly."
"If you're missing 'near,' adjust accordingly. If you're missing 'far,' adjust accordingly."
Burnham
Woods walker
Like Sean says, if you're consistent with your error, it's easy to fix, relatively.
If you're all over the map all the time, then you just suck, better find a different way to make a living before you hurt yourself or someone else.
Not really
...also as Sean says, practice, practice, practice. It's a learnable skillset.
If you're all over the map all the time, then you just suck, better find a different way to make a living before you hurt yourself or someone else
.Not really
...also as Sean says, practice, practice, practice. It's a learnable skillset.
woodslinger
TreeHouser
The second opinion was just level or off-level. But I see the point in self sufficiency as well as self-awareness.
A question I forgot to answer from a few posts ago, yes I have the bigger dogs on both sides of the bar. They grab very effectively. Once I find a used, cheap saw bigger than my 461 I'll put a full wrap on it, all in time.
A question I forgot to answer from a few posts ago, yes I have the bigger dogs on both sides of the bar. They grab very effectively. Once I find a used, cheap saw bigger than my 461 I'll put a full wrap on it, all in time.
SouthSoundTree-
TreeHouser
- Joined
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- Messages
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A full wrap is great, but not necessary. Kinda like air conditioning. A full wrap would go a long way on your 461, IMO, especially if you need to use it in the tree. Maybe buy used, and sell your 1/2 wrap to support the full wrap purchase. If you need a handlebar as a spare part, you usually need much more than a handlebar for spare parts 
.
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pantheraba
More biners!!!
Those are very good tips, Jed...thanks for taking the time to pass that along. And very clear points...got it...and will work on them. Burnham is the one that made me really realize I needed to pay a lot of attention to what's up above...especially on the dead trees.
Sean...."A good vestibular system, and spatial-relational intelligence" is a good way to describe the "dead-eye" shooters I referenced. I know my son has a very good spatial awareness. He can visualize very well how things fit, how they work, where he is in relationship to his surroundings. He was super at Lego's as a young'un and is very good at building things now...decks, buildings, barns, etc. He knows way more about those things than I do.
I like having him as my groundman...he has a good eye for what will work and what just might not...pretty important in treework.
Burnham
Woods walker
Indeed...in fact, that's pretty important in all of life Gary. You raised a good one, it seems.
woodslinger
TreeHouser
A full wrap is great, but not necessary. Kinda like air conditioning. A full wrap would go a long way on your 461, IMO, especially if you need to use it in the tree. Maybe buy used, and sell your 1/2 wrap to support the full wrap purchase. If you need a handlebar as a spare part, you usually need much more than a handlebar for spare parts
Good one on the spare parts
My only holdback on getting a full wrap for the 461 is stump cutting. That's my biggest saw, and usually the only one that will reach across the flare on a stump. When I stumble across another large saw (used and cheap) then I'll use that one for stumping and put a full wrap on the 461. There have been several occasions that I wished for a full wrap on it, had to either backchain or switch sides of the trunk to maintain a balanced grip.
Burnham
Woods walker
Damn me, but I must be stupid to not understand this problem...I can't say how many times 30 seconds or much less with a shovel made my full wrap handles a moot issue getting right down alap for stump cuts.
Or is it that the rest of y'all lazy bastids are missing the easy way to have the benefits of full wrap handles without any downside??? I'd trade the minimal effort to make a low enough area to sweep a good alap stump cut over never having all the value of having a full wrap handle day in and out, any effing day.
Or is it that the rest of y'all lazy bastids are missing the easy way to have the benefits of full wrap handles without any downside??? I'd trade the minimal effort to make a low enough area to sweep a good alap stump cut over never having all the value of having a full wrap handle day in and out, any effing day.
SouthSoundTree-
TreeHouser
- Joined
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Once you go Full-wrap, you never go back. Until then, you just don't know what you're missing. Kinda like big dogs, and wedges.
sotc
Dormant hero!!
Falling timber and rarely doing alap, full wrap all the way. Alap most of the time? Half wrap for me. But I know y'all think I'm nuttier than squirrel poo already
Blah, blah, blah..................the whole world isn't the PNW, Sean.
Come work with me a season in the woods here, making stumps the required way and then sing your praises for full wrap.
Same goes with the big dogs.
I bought a pair, tried them and found them to be TOTALLY worthless when cutting smooth barked hardwoods close to the ground.
Ended up giving them to a fellow treehouser.
woodslinger
TreeHouser
Well, when you put it that way. . .
I'm leaning a little closer to throwing one on it and seeing how it works out. Have to get my insurance premiums paid first.
SouthSoundTree-
TreeHouser
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pete mctree
Treehouser
I choose my kit for the job. 2x 44's one with short bar & little dogs for the woods & the other bigger bar & felling dogs for Arb work. Same with my 2x 66's - one with a wrap handle. Too many people put themselves into a single camp & loose the ability to be flexible
