Summer boots with steel shank???

[TINYHULK]

I deal with the heat like all of us but when I climb a big tree or have multiple removals I’ll be up there for 8-12 hours straight and with super hot boots the sweat build up causes foot health issues and bacteria to grow. I’ve found shankless boots I can wear but I would like to pick something better for the heat. Every pair I see online with steel shanks looks like just pure hot a$$ leather. They make clogger zero g2’s for arborists in the summer (that’s what I use), was just hoping for a similar suggestion in the nature of boots with a steel shank.

 

[lxskllr]

I'm not sure what you can do to reduce heat tbh. You're putting out 100° just from your body. If it's close to 100° outside, you're gonna be 100° barring active cooling. You could try something like desert combat boots with nylon panels instead of leather, but I haven't found they're much cooler than uninsulated leather. I'm also unsure how well they'd stand up to the rigors of spur use. They'd let a bit of sweat pass, but it isn't gonna go far in mid Atlantic humidity.

 

[SeanKroll]

Daily antifungal foot powder/ spray and changing socks during the day, along with a foot breather, and maybe a change of boots would help.

Toe nail fungal infection (treated by Rx) commonly starts as Athlete's foot.


8 hours in that kind of heat is a lot to ask. Some people suggest 6 hours of onsite working is a good limit.

I always tell my employees that they can 'call it' when they feel it's the right time.



Cooling off with a hose, hands/ arms or feet/ legs in a 5 gallon bucket would help the heat challenge a lot. Sitting in AC during breaks, too.





If you're out of commission, doesn't that put the crew out of commission?

 

[lxskllr]

I'd also suggest wool socks instead of cotton, and especially synthetics. Something like DarnTough with a thinish tight weave would be good for summer.

 

[Burnham]

@TINYHULK, sorry to be so blunt, but 8 to 12 hours in a tree is not just unwise, frankly it is stupid. There is no way a climber can work safely, let alone be effective for that long at a stretch.

 

[SeanKroll]

An OG who knows.

 

[Tree09]

Get a boot dryer and you'll put on dry boots every morning.

 

[TINYHULK]

Not blunt at all Mr. @Burnham! Those days are typically due to the ground crew lacking and taking too long. Last summer was amazing financially but 50-70 hour weeks from march-October was a bit rough both physically and realistically. I’m hoping to be more on top of the schedule and to be more realistic for all of us. I’m not the owner but I get to create the schedule and hire/fire my own guys.

 

[SeanKroll]

Lacking what? Taking too long by who's measure? Are they slackers? Inexperienced/ under-trained? Worn out? Are the jobs underbid/ under-time scheduled?

Maybe having less hours for more guys would be better. People are not continuous-duty diesel engines.


If I could get a crew to run the ground like I could, or a climber to climb like I can, it would be great. A ton of experience can not be learned by being told about what another person has learned over years. It is a great start to have a good mentor/ patient teacher.

 

[TINYHULK]

Sometimes they were slackers and didn’t last long but it was mainly a lot of inexperienced people. I would train them but we all know how overwhelmed a new groundie can get with all of the things to learn plus being proficient on the ground. There were seasons where I had a good crew and would destroy work and I’d be out of a tree in no time. I have the tendency though that once I get up there I don’t like to get down until the job is done or it’s dark

 

[Bart]

There's an opportunity here for application of cooling clothing technology to footwear. The easiest low hanging fruit would be forced air convection and sweat removal. I would imagine it would have to be embedded in the boot padding/structure as even a fold in a sock results in a pressure point and discomfort. On the flip side they could convert to heated boots in cold weather, though sweat removal would unfortunately still act as a cooling mechanism.

You heard it here first. Send the cheque in the mail.

 

[SeanKroll]

Sometimes they were slackers and didn’t last long but it was mainly a lot of inexperienced people. I would train them but we all know how overwhelmed a new groundie can get with all of the things to learn plus being proficient on the ground. There were seasons where I had a good crew and would destroy work and I’d be out of a tree in no time. I have the tendency though that once I get up there I don’t like to get down until the job is done or it’s dark

If new, and being trained (inexperienced), and working safely, it sounds like they took the right amount of time while being overworked by "the man".

This is what leads to so much danger in tree work.




You might consider that you wanting to stay up in the tree for that long of a time period is not very wise, even if you want to do what you want to do.
This is the age of rope-walking. You can be back up the tree in a jif. Alternately, with that many ground staff, you could be carefully, manually pulled up the tree on a rigging line, while on a climbing system in 1-2 minutes.


Going down to do hands-on, real-time mentoring, showing them how you do it, offering up how others approach the similar tasks while doing those tasks help understanding and retention.

Walking them through it, explaining your reasoning and approach, step-by-step, is invaluable. Follow that up by walking them through it, explaining your reasoning as you go, and asking them to explain what they are understanding as the reasoning is another step. Then, let them run through it, explaining their reasoning, only interjecting if needed for safety, will build confidence, depth of understanding, and integration.

Remember, they may be trying to learn with a BPM of 100, with a lot of adrenaline pumping. Great for fight or flight, not great for learning.

$0.02 from training newbies for 18 years.


I tell people that doing tree work is for almost nobody. You will definitely have to sort through the trainee pool. Some people are just not up to it. Others need teaching in all different ways.


Do you have any non-production staff training sessions/ days?

 

[TINYHULK]

Great advice Sean! I do my best while in the bucket to come down and teach my guys, not so much while in a climbing situation. We don’t have designated days of training but whenever the opportunity avails itself I try to train and educate before we go to a job. One thing I struggle with is that I am very technical and tend to over teach/talk over someone’s head when I get into a topic. Been doing this for 3 years and am constantly teaching myself/studying. But I am still figuring out how to teach others in a way that isn’t how I learned/perceived it so that they can retain the information the best

 

[lxskllr]

One thing at a time, and build on it iteratively. Safety and basic principles first, then nuance. Teaching sucks. I'm not that good at it, and sometimes your student is just stupid and untrainable. Hopefully you don't have too many of those.

 

[SeanKroll]

Get a white board, and a tablet for videos

 

[Burnham]

Teaching a task is most definitely a different skill set than actually performing the task. I've known plenty of folks that were exceptionally talented at doing complex challenging things, but few who combined that ability with the chops to teach well.

That old saw about "those who cannot do, teach" may be true in some cases, but IMO the better teachers absolutely can perform. That's the only way they can know and understand the real nuances of a job, the ways a practitioner can excel.

 

[SeanKroll]

What does your extensive experience suggest for teaching tree work, @Burnham ?

 

[Burnham]

One thing I learned about teaching climbing and rigging is that what worked for the last student won't necessarily work for the next one. People learn in different ways. Some need to hear things, some need to read things and see pictures, others need to do things hands on. It never is all one or the other of these, always a combination, but the emphasis has to be tailored to the individual to get things to take best.

The ability to recognize who needs things presented in what ways is where one true talent as a teacher lies.

Another thing I learned is that the teacher needs to be organized, and to build on a logical progression of skills. Scattershot presentation that jumps all over the place is counterproductive...as is starting in on an advanced concept without well understood basics in place first.

Patience is vital. Getting mad and hollering never gets the job done, ime. Encouragement is useful, often.

Honesty is also important. The instructor needs to give positive feedback if it is warranted...but if not, you have to say so and explain what or why the student is not hitting the mark. That will not make one popular, at times. And if a student has no aptitude, or willingness to learn, then you have to be willing cut your losses.

 

[SeanKroll]

@TINYHULK what is your daily break schedule?

 

[Burnham]

I suppose it's like apples and oranges, to compare what I did as a climbing instructor alongside what almost all of you owner/operators or crew leads have to deal with.

I taught under the auspices of a structured training program that certified individuals to perform tree climbing duties as employees of a large federal bureaucracy. I had 4 to 5 full days, depending on class size (5 students was max) that were totally committed to the training. I wasn't out to accomplish a single thing but that training.

At the end, I certified qualified climbers as competent to perform climbing tasks pertinent to their jobs, able to do the work safely. But the USFS program is structured around the concept of a two person climbing team. New climbers generally are teamed with a more experienced hand, once back at their home unit. They are not expected to be first tier climbers right out of the box. That peer mentoring is crucial to follow up the formal training, and is where real competence is built.

So much of my earlier post in answer to Sean @SeanKroll may just sound like pie in the sky wishful thinking to most of you folk. It's got to be hard to bring a newbie crew member along at the same time you're trying to make money on a schedule.

 

[Burnham]

One last comment from the old guy...I was supremely fortunate to have as the pool of trainees, people for whom the climbing gig was icing on the cake of their regular duties, almost always. Motivated, engaged, enthusiastic, and willing to work harder than hell to meet my standards.

Climbing duties with the USFS are, with very, very rare exceptions, not part of a job description. They are often seen as a special benefit that few employees have the opportunity to pursue. That of course makes the instructor's job almost always a pleasure.

Even getting assigned to work ground support for a project a climber/instructor/training facilitator of my status was on was seen as highly desirable temp duty. I almost never had any issues at all with that cohort, when doing project work. I'm sure most of you have had many different experiences .

 

[TINYHULK]

It seems like I am finally starting to build a solid team this year and am excited for it. Normally it is a slow start to the day at the yard with getting equipment loaded and going over the day. By the time we get to the job it’s a safety walk and going over the job details. We get the job going around 9am, either trailers are full or I’m ready to drop the spar by then. Normally there is a break/lunch around 1-2pm then the final loading of big wood and clean up. We are pretty diverse with land clearing, grading, and my boss being a class A contractor so the days vary but that makes it fun and different