Someone Might Care... Who Knows?

[MasterBlaster]

You're almost there, brother!

 

[Jed]

You and me both. I was watching the "BC fallers safety course" last nite, shows different faces etc and back cuts being made in the bush. It was mesmerizing and had me itching to go make some stumps, Yet that's basically all I do day in day out is make stumps, go figure.

Man, that's super weird. I hadn't watched that (the BC stuff) in over a year, and--come to find out--you and I were watching the same thing, at pretty much the same time. Those guys are incredibly good at nailing it on the diagonal far corner. Wish I were.

Oh, and I'm in the dirt way more than I like to admit. I'll try to scrape my Humboldts out of the dirt, like an ass, and dull up way faster, than if I'd just left a little higher stump for our tractor.

 

[woodworkingboy]

I know some old timers that were quite adamant about chopping off the bark on large trees where they would be sinking their large saws into them. Save on cutter wear. Often people carried a good tool for doing that bark removal on their belt, that also sufficed for whacking smaller limbs. Saved on gas. Old times can be quite frugal. A number of good tree whacking tools without engines here.

 

[cory]

Jed, weird all right!! Wow. And from opposite coasts no less.

Jay, as I understand it, when the felling/logging of all the Mt St Helens standing damaged timber was going on, there were fellows whose full time job was to chop off the bark where the felling cuts would be made to eliminate the gritty volcanic ash. Nasty work it had to be.

 

[Jed]

Yeah, there's a hilarious video of that on an old U.S. Loggers TV show.

Also showed a couple old growth pigs coming over. Real talented Washington fallers on that cut. Apparently, there wasn't a dendrologist in the world who knew Firpigs could live that long until they fell those trees. One was 1,200 years, or so I remember. Now, couple that with volcanic ash, and you're dulling up some chain.

I remember they were running 3/4 chisel on that cut. Is there anybody out there using that stuff who actually feels like it's more durable?

 

[Magnus]

3/4 chain on a saw?

 

[Jed]

Oh, I meant 3/4 chisel, Magnus. You doubtless have tons of it, but call it by a different name.

Uhhh... How DO you explain it? O.k... there is an obvious curve between the top and side plates, instead of the hard 90 which we refer to as, "Full Chisel." I was taught that 3/4 was more durable--a claim that has always seemed a little bit dumb to me. I think it evolved from what people here call, "chipper chain," which, I was told, was the first kind of chisel invented for power-saw chain.

 

[Tucker943]

Semi-chisel?

 

[stig]

Most likely.
Yes it is more durable.
I use it when cutting blowdown loose from rootballs, if i do it for a long time.
It isn't worth the hassle of changing chains if it is just for a couple of days.
But last spring when we free-cut 1200 cubic meters, it was.

 

[Cold Logging]

I've worked with a lot of guys that cut on St Helen's. They had different techniques the used to deal with chains getting dull quickly. Some guys ran 084scso they could PUSH HARD when their chain got dull. . Some would fall as much as they could without crossing themselves up. Change their chain and limb and buck what they fell up then fall more till that chain was dull. And do it all over again.
Some guys used the tip to scratch a circle where they were going to make a buck to clean the ash away as best they could. Those guys said their chains lasted longer as they were blowing the ash away from the cutters instead of the teeth actually dragging the ash.into the cut. Bars lasted 1 week. Chains sometimes only lasted 1 day and the links and pins were so wore out the chain wasn't even the same pitch any more. . Lots of guys were still running 056 Supers. The 056 was always under filtered. They would be wore out in a month or 2 . That was when we started seeing velocity stacks and foam filters on bushlin saws. That was also when guys running 2100 Huskies and 181 ect Huskies discovered that if they cut a hole on the lower left side of the front of the Carb compartment. Their OEM air filters didn't plug up anywhere near as fast as if left in stock configuration. Which lead to Huskies Air Flow/ Jonsreds Turbo technology.
And they all chopped as much thick, ash filled bark as they could. Some guys carried a bark spud with them.

 

[Jed]

Probably the most informative post I've read in two years.

Thanks.

Oh yeah, Chris... I meant semi. 3/4???

 

[Magnus]

But what saws did they run to feed the 3/4 chain? Semi or not it still wants 30hp or so to function properly.
It is mostly used on mashines were the hydraulic engins are way beond that.

Any chance I could get a pic of that air injection system? It was a former Partner Engineer that got cred for this system as he had these ideas in 1975. Husqvarna and partner merged 1978-1979. Husqvarna got it on their saws 1986.



A hole will perhaps will not help as the crap is outside along wall. The idea of it is that it is like a centrifuge, crap is tossed out and air sucked in as close to fan as possible with a wide thin entrance. In the 1100 (2100-2101 included) series saws I thought it was taking air in from rear with a pre filter even.. There already is a hole by flywheel were a plug should be to not fill air-filter housing with crap. This was used to pull cable thru and was often missing..

 

[Magnus]

Oh, I meant 3/4 chisel, Magnus. You doubtless have tons of it, but call it by a different name.

Uhhh... How DO you explain it? O.k... there is an obvious curve between the top and side plates, instead of the hard 90 which we refer to as, "Full Chisel." I was taught that 3/4 was more durable--a claim that has always seemed a little bit dumb to me. I think it evolved from what people here call, "chipper chain," which, I was told, was the first kind of chisel invented for power-saw chain.

Perhaps you mean 3/8 chain?

Chisel chain has 90 degree angle on side plate with a sharp corner.
Semi chisel somewhat rounded a bit more tolerant to crap and filing angles. also preferred when limbing as it will not grab when pulled along trunk of tree.
Chipper is very round and hard to find today. Very tolerant to crap and filing angles.

 

[Jed]

No Magnus, I meant semi-chisel. I think I avoid the term because people here always think I mean semi-skip.

People have always told me that it was more durable, but I thought that the difference was negligible.

I would only trust timber-cutters like Stig, who have had hundreds of feet of feet of it on the chain-grinders. It seems to me that only they are qualified to know the significance of the difference. I just hate that stuff, and before 63ps3, it was all we could get for our top handles. I can't understand why an arborist would ever want semi chisel for any of his saws, unless he runs a special saw just for flush cuts.

 

[flushcut]

What you talking to me? My 3120 is pretty much just a stump saw.

 

[Cold Logging]

But what saws did they run to feed the 3/4 chain? Semi or not it still wants 30hp or so to function properly.
It is mostly used on mashines were the hydraulic engins are way beond that.

Any chance I could get a pic of that air injection system? It was a former Partner Engineer that got cred for this system as he had these ideas in 1975. Husqvarna and partner merged 1978-1979. Husqvarna got it on their saws 1986.

View attachment 59339

A hole will perhaps will not help as the crap is outside along wall. The idea of it is that it is like a centrifuge, crap is tossed out and air sucked in as close to fan as possible with a wide thin entrance. In the 1100 (2100-2101 included) series saws I thought it was taking air in from rear with a pre filter even.. There already is a hole by flywheel were a plug should be to not fill air-filter housing with crap. This was used to pull cable thru and was often missing..

On the 181 and flat filtered 288 , metal gas tank . The air was pulled from the back. On the plastic tank, stack filtered 288 there is a slot formed in the left side bottom of the top cover. That was pre Air Flow system. That feature made it so we didn't have to make a hole/ slot there. As we had been with the 2100s . The first Air Flow system I ever saw was on the 394 . Don't know what Husky did on their little saws but we learned the trick in The Ash. By doing that we got 3 times more run time per filter cleaning.
Jed was talking about semi chisel chain. Not 3/4 pitch chain.
The big old gear drive saws ran 3/4 pitch chain. Then they went to 5/8 pitch then down to 404 pitch. At least on West Coast falling saws.

 

[Magnus]

I understand the confusion in terms. I got hung up on the pitch rather than type of cutter. I can't think of 3/4 chain on any one man saw.
Not even listed as option. There was on two man saws, I have it on some, but not on any of the one man saws.
Could it be another pitch like 3/8 ,404 7/16 1/2 9/16 or something else?

Sounds pretty odd it was 3/4 chain 1980 on a one man saw, so naturally I got interested and like to know more.

 

[Cold Logging]

More like from the late 1950s . The old timers that broke me in Falling talked about it. And I've seen Diston saws with it on them.

 

[Magnus]

I have Disston saws.. Some of then did use 3/4 chain, but I doubt they were used in 1980.

The 100 I don't know pitch but it looks like the KB6. It has 9/16 I think.

I had a DA-211 with 3/4 inch Oregon chisel chain from '55 something.

 

[Magnus]

It might be thought that it is going overboard to be wanting to get edges real sharp with either a file or a grinder, but it has to be kept in mind that sharp with those tools is not very sharp at all, compared to what is obtainable with fine grit sharpening stones, water type or oil, natural or synthetic. A file or grinding wheel is a relatively coarse sharpening surface, even when used in the most skilful of hands. An edge might look shiny, but it isn't polished by any means when compared to what a knife maker or woodworker will need to get for a very keen edge, one that will reflect like a mirror. A more jagged edge compared will not give durability like a more refined one in the same steel. The same principle as sandpaper, 120 grit is going to get something relatively smooth, but compared to 400 grit, the coarser is going to unavoidably leave more irregularity scratches on the surface. Files are the best solution for sharpening chains currently when wanting to get sharp, but when it comes to using a double cut fine grade file, at best that is only preliminary to getting something close to as sharp as it can become with other methods, unfortunately much more time consuming ones that aren't practical.

With stones, beyond a certain grade they aren't considered for cutting, basically for polishing. A file isn't a polishing tool, technically speaking. Try shaving with a straight razor edge put on with a chainsaw file, and possibly resemble Freddy krueger.

There is a big difference in a cut surface and one from grinding. It is not comparable as it is very different.
You can file a metal surface so even that they stick together. You can grind/sand it, but it is takes more time and effort in several steps and mistakes are easily made.
In Husqvarna factory the filing shop was the entrance to the factory. This is were you start.
In the 30's and 40's the test to be hired was to file two 500g metal blocks. You were given the blocks, a file and a cloth.
When you were done and surface was as expected you place one against the other and lift both holding top one.
So smooth there is no air in between. If you could do that you are hired with a filers wages. If not you were trainee.
File is a cutting tool that leave a cut surface and depending on materials and files used decide what surface it is.
Grinding knifes I know a bit of. We used to have different edges and knifes for different jobs. Not reffering to angles now, but edges.
A 7" knife held in rear handle pulled over room tempered meat should leave a cut 7cm deep in 7" cut. By its own weight.
The sharper the knife, the smother is the cut. Butchering and cutting hot meat demand it is really sharp. Cutting cold is more forgiving.

We used three steps. Water rinsed horizontal grinding wheel.
Then polish in one or two steps depending on how good you were grinding.
Last and most important was magnetic steel rod. Polished, not ruff edged.

This last step is like a file as the magnetic steel bend the microscopic burr ledt after polish and you cut it off with edge of knife.
Too big burr it breaks and leave a ruff edge.

 

[BlackSmith]

Magnus, what angles would be best for dry/dead wood? I've been using the factory angles on this Stihl chain and it cuts ok but I think it could do better. Cut a green tree yesterday and it was like a hot knife in butter, first one probably 15 years, so the factory angles are good for live trees but not so great in dead. I just chalked it up to being stupid which is the root cause of 99% of my problems. Anyway, throw some angles at me. Keep in mind I'm just a wannabe firewood butcher.

 

[woodworkingboy]

Bob, dry wood is usually a lot harder too, could be a factor. Especially some species, like Black Acacia. Interested in what Magnus will say, it seems like angles could make a difference, With real hard wood there is the edge durability factor as well.

 

[BlackSmith]

The most of what I cut is oak and locust Jay.

 

[woodworkingboy]

I meant Black locust, not Acacia. Seems amazingly hard sometimes.

 

[Magnus]

When I file for hard wood and use Oregon 73LPX chain I file with 20 instead of 25.
I have file with 5,5mm file and a tad higher in tooth and file parallel to op plate. It gives a bit less hook and a more durable corner.
Same with 21LPX
If i use 21BPX I file with 25 as rek and 10 as rek. but hold file a tad higher i tooth first half if I use 4,8mm file. Normal if I use 5mm (or 5,2 when I have) file. This is also to get a bit less hook. If I use 5mm it is first half of chain only.

Acasia here is really soft wood. It is in Germany called Acasia, we call them Rubinia. Latin name of the one I have is Robinia pseudoacacia.
I thought it was called Black locust in Eng, but I can't say for sure.