Singing Tree Rope Wrench Review.

[Widow Shooter]

I would think that a knot that spreads out the friction and load, such as a VT, would be a good choice, at least that is what i use, it grabs every time reliably the way I tie it, and slides smooth when un-weighted, as it says in the promo video, tie a tested, trusted hitch with a life support rated cordage I tried it in my yard from 20 feet and down.

climbing with just a hitch on SRT that is

and anytime i weighted the VT, it locked right up and was all but impossible to move unless i stood on the rope and un-locked it.

(I backed it up with a footlock prussik) Has anybody ever made a big swinging descent for a limb say 20 feet of more below? and maybe, just maybe misjudged the distance I have and believe you me, my VT let me know I had misjudged with an abrupt halt! LOL.

 

[gf beranek]

From my own early and very un-scientific experiments in these matters I found the taught line hitch would lock up on the rope and when I did manage to loosen it up,, to descend,, I would then go into what felt like a free fall. In which I followed by clinching the knot, allowing the bridge to tighten and the hitch once again locked miserably tight onto the line. There was no inbetween or smooth control about it.

I went a little farther by abseiling the line, wrapping it around my leg and using the feet to pinch and bear friction. That helped a little, but not enough to convince me that the system was safe to work off of. So I defaulted and went back to using DRT. That was all in the early 70's when we made the transition to synthetic rope.

I see how the RW solves this problem and I think that it is a very good innovation. Kudos to you, Kevin.

I think what B is getting at is what I described in my early findings.

 

[Widow Shooter]

Sounds like trying to come down on a footlock prussik when you practice and forget your 8 on the ground...done that too Gerry it can be done, but it is not at all likeable.

 

[Burnham]

In particular I'm referring to tests and actual accident reports that come from the caving community. I think I read about both on the ON ROPE website, or perhaps Gary Storrick's site. That's not a very precise reference, and those you've quoted are quite so...in which case I'll defer.

None the less, the vert. rope literature has numerous instances of reported failure of backup friction hitch performance when a primary descent device has failed to control a rappel. Fatalities and injuries have occured. I know the comparison is not identical, but that's enough reason for me to make sure I'd be completely confident in the RW tether. That's all I have been recommending...that, and that unalloyed confidence in the ability of any friction hitch/host lifeline combo that a climber might set up with the RW for SRT will arrest an unexpected loss of the friction input from the RW is ill-placed.

Again, I'm not saying the RW is unsafe, or that anyone should quit using it. I think it's a brilliant approach to solving a problem that more than a few rope technicians have pursued for decades.

 

[kevin bingham]

I do appreciate very much being challenged, it makes it all better. In fact, I think the research on friction hitches is quite scarce. There is a surprising lack of reference material on the topic that I can find. Please if you do find those references in Storrick or On Rope, pass them my way.

I think The treemagineers did an interesting thing by getting a ce certified hitch. I wish that they did dynamic tests on the hitch in SRT formation which I think would be more interesting. Dussenne and Mathias did the tests discussed in that article, but I don't know what the tests involved, the detail, or where to find them other than that article. I think it would be good to get some research done on all this with the idea that many people are now work positioning SRT.

My biggest fear with the rope wrench is that climbers will begin tyeing very loose hitches because the wrench somewhat allows you to do that. It allows you to tie a friction hitch that will not stand alone. When the wrench engages, the hitch will hold but, if, for some reason the wrench is not allowed to engage, the hitch will also not work. The Wrench is a descender with a neutral gear that really must be engaged to operate. It slows a climber down to tie a good hitch so some speed devils may be tempted to tie a loose and fast hitch which works with the wrench engaged but then that moment when they lose their balance while tending slack, the wrench may not there for them.

I am nervous about that. But I also believe and I wouldn't be putting this out there if I didn't truly believe it, That a well tied hitch is life support on a single line and the wrench is a tool to facilitate the movement of that hitch.

 

[canadiantreeman]

Dave, about the uni. I meant almost exactly what Kevin said, that the RW seems to have a feel that is more similar to that of a the Ddrt hitch to which I've grown accustomed. I'm not saying that the uni is a bad tool, far from it. I was contemplating buying one this winter, saving my pennies for the switch to SRT.

But for the Ddrt production climber who is considering the switch to full time SRT production climbing, like myself, I want to spend my money on something for which the learning curve will be quick, with minimal fuddling around in order to get it dialed in. I simply think that, in my position, the RW would be a more economical, easier way to transition.

Obviously, you are invested in the uni, and are already dialed in with regards to the system(s) you use. I am sure I could learn from you and that you could show me the way to transition. Don't get me wrong, I ain't knocking ya.

From my keyboard the RW seems to me to be the easiest way for a guy like myself to make that leap (errr...bad choice of words here).

 

[gf beranek]

I do appreciate very much being challenged, it makes it all better. In fact, I think the research on friction hitches is quite scarce. There is a surprising lack of reference material on the topic that I can find. Please if you do find those references in Storrick or On Rope, pass them my way.

I think The treemagineers did an interesting thing by getting a ce certified hitch. I wish that they did dynamic tests on the hitch in SRT formation which I think would be more interesting. Dussenne and Mathias did the tests discussed in that article, but I don't know what the tests involved, the detail, or where to find them other than that article. I think it would be good to get some research done on all this with the idea that many people are now work positioning SRT.

My biggest fear with the rope wrench is that climbers will begin tyeing very loose hitches because the wrench somewhat allows you to do that. It allows you to tie a friction hitch that will not stand alone. When the wrench engages, the hitch will hold but, if, for some reason the wrench is not allowed to engage, the hitch will also not work. The Wrench is a descender with a neutral gear that really must be engaged to operate. It slows a climber down to tie a good hitch so some speed devils may be tempted to tie a loose and fast hitch which works with the wrench engaged but then that moment when they lose their balance while tending slack, the wrench may not there for them.

I am nervous about that. But I also believe and I wouldn't be putting this out there if I didn't truly believe it, That a well tied hitch is life support on a single line and the wrench is a tool to facilitate the movement of that hitch.

Very clear and well put, Kevin. I've been fortunate to meet many innovators in the new schools of arborculture and forestry. I think you fit in among them.

Burnam pointed out to me in a different thread that single line work techniques are going to become the new thing. And I am sure he is right.

 

[DMc]

But for the Ddrt production climber who is considering the switch to full time SRT production climbing, like myself, I want to spend my money on something for which the learning curve will be quick, with minimal fuddling around in order to get it dialed in. I simply think that, in my position, the RW would be a more economical, easier way to transition.

Nice, well thought out answer, thanks. I am also a full time climber but being self employed, there is no one but myself to blame if work slows while I take the time to learn something new. So your logic in easing the transition to SRT work positioning by using something like the RW/hitch combo makes sense. However, with that said and as great as SRT is for working, you still can get into trouble real fast. Take your time when necessary and memorize Burnham's signature line. Be safe.

Dave

 

[rangerdanger]

Didn't realize this thread had taken off so quickly, otherwise I would have posted eariler.

In regards to the hitch on an SRT line, one thing i noticed is when ascending with the RW/hitch combo, the RW does not engage, but merely slides up the rope with u, almost as if its not there. Anytime I take a quick break, my hitch is holding all my weight, and there is usually no friction or weight on the RW unless I had engaged it. I'm guessing many climbers who use the RW will do much the same as I do, so I'm guessing they will find out real quick whether their hitch alone can hold them on an SRT line. And in the case of ascent, if it does happen, they will merely slide until their RW engages, in which case, if they tied their hitch around the RW being engaged, then their hitch will catch and hold them, so no fall occurs.

 

[NickfromWI]

Well worded. Makes sense and seems logical.

 

[CurSedVoyce]

Does it come in red yet ?

Seriously .. I need to order one with a pin sooner than later... I'm sold.
I use SRT a lot in trees these days. It still depends on the tree. I love the Ddrt and I will probably never stop using it. Each system really does have it's place in working different trees. Heck, sometimes the same tree. Had two trees recent I worked one side SRT and then switched to Ddrt on the opposite side as it just made sense for my attack plan on the tree.
You done good Kevin based on what i have read from the guys trying it out.

An added note is that Burnam's input and a few other's here on stuff I have shared and done has just made me a better tree man and climber. I used to tell Burnam I loved his critiquing me as I was learning.

 

[Widow Shooter]

Did a huge Manitoba maple removal today, used the wrench on one side, DRT on the other, could have used the wrench on the whole thing, probably should have...

 

[Burnham]

Didn't realize this thread had taken off so quickly, otherwise I would have posted eariler.

In regards to the hitch on an SRT line, one thing i noticed is when ascending with the RW/hitch combo, the RW does not engage, but merely slides up the rope with u, almost as if its not there. Anytime I take a quick break, my hitch is holding all my weight, and there is usually no friction or weight on the RW unless I had engaged it. I'm guessing many climbers who use the RW will do much the same as I do, so I'm guessing they will find out real quick whether their hitch alone can hold them on an SRT line. And in the case of ascent, if it does happen, they will merely slide until their RW engages, in which case, if they tied their hitch around the RW being engaged, then their hitch will catch and hold them, so no fall occurs.

Not to beat a dead horse, Adrian... but the issue is not whether the RW will engage when called to do so when the system is intact, but rather whether the hitch alone is sufficient for fall arrest should the RW become unattached to the climber due to a tether failure. No one argues with your observations when all is as it should be.

 

[NickfromWI]

I think what rangerdanger is saying is that it's not a question or a surprise. You'll know right away if it's not working. You'll use it one your way up.

It's not like a standard prusik backup where it's rides atop an ascender never being loaded then all of a sudden you find out when something goes wrong!!

With the RW system you use the hitch often- no surprises.

And why wouldn't a hitch he sufficient. People climb a lot on hitch only ascent systems all the time.

Thoughts?

love
nick

 

[Widow Shooter]

I think what rangerdanger is saying is that it's not a question or a surprise. You'll know right away if it's not working. You'll use it one your way up.

It's not like a standard prusik backup where it's rides atop an ascender never being loaded then all of a sudden you find out when something goes wrong!!

With the RW system you use the hitch often- no surprises.

And why wouldn't a hitch he sufficient. People climb a lot on hitch only ascent systems all the time.

Thoughts?

love
nick

get splicing.....

 

[Burnham]

I think what rangerdanger is saying is that it's not a question or a surprise. You'll know right away if it's not working. You'll use it one your way up.

It's not like a standard prusik backup where it's rides atop an ascender never being loaded then all of a sudden you find out when something goes wrong!!

With the RW system you use the hitch often- no surprises.

And why wouldn't a hitch he sufficient. People climb a lot on hitch only ascent systems all the time.

Thoughts?

love
nick

My most immediate thought is to just give up here...I cannot understand how obtuse some of y'all are being. I am pretty confident in my ability to write a concise and clear thought, but it sure doesn't seem like it's working out that way on this issue.

One more time, Nick...the whole purpose of the RW is to add an additional level of friction to the SRT system, thereby allowing the friction hitch to function in a predictable manner. When you say people climb on hitch only ascent systems, you are correct but that is neither here nor there...the issue is DESCENDING on a hitch only SRT system. Of course the whole RW SRT system works when all the parts are in play; Kevin has designed a very clever device and tested it well...that is not the issue, people.

Consider:
When one is in descent mode with the RW SRT system, one is pulling down on the top of the friction hitch just as in DRT. If at that point the tether to the RW were to part, then there is a sudden reduction in friction in the system controlling descent.

IF the climber doesn't do what many experienced rappellers have done...that is, continue to pull down on the hitch in basic human panic mode attempting to hang on to the rope...and IF the hitch when released during an already accelerating descent does indeed grab and hold without the additional friction the RW had been imparting to the system...then all is well.

That's too many IF's for me to use a dinky little 5mm tether. That's really all I'm saying.

I've been in this rope technician biz for a long time, and it has continually surprised me how insular the arb community can be in ignoring what other disciplines have done and know how to do. This confidence many of you seem to have at the infallibility of a hitch to grab a rope again once it's already in accelerating motion is a prime example.

Personal experience and tests at how a friction hitch functions once set, then pulled to determine how well it holds, have zero relevence to how they will function in other modes.

Sorry if I'm sounding snippy here...I guess I am a bit. Please forgive.

 

[CurSedVoyce]

Sounds more of care and concern to me Burnam...

 

[Widow Shooter]

with a side of snip

 

[CurSedVoyce]

Lou.... Slap him

 

[quabinclimber]

Fantastic disscussion! Burnham, I can see your points and please never get to frustrated with the crowd to share your concerns about safety!.... Using variations of the F8 revolver and rope wrench over the past 6 months or so I have become comfortable to call the system safe for me. I started with the 5mm tech cord as a tether and also on my lanyard as a hitch but soon decided I just wasn't comfortable with that diameter for the conditions I expose my gear to. I also feel there are much better options out there. I also hear you on the concerns while decsending on a hitch and losing the wrench who knows what would happen. there are variables. So the way I see the wrench does have some life support properties in this system at least when descending, after all it's this device that allows the system to work, without it you would be stuck (im not saying you would drop, but you would be stuck).
As it shows in the video, if attacked by bees, the rope wrench system allows you to descend immideately, with out it you would be in trouble especially if you are allergic. if you were just on a hitch and panic and try with all your might to release it, you could drop.

I can understand both points but for my own personal use I consider the wrench to at least have some life support properties because it allows my life support hitch to support me in either direction of travel.

 

[Reddog]

Burnham I agree with your concerns as the same reason I use Tenex to put my figure 8 above my VT hitch for SRT descents.

Looking at this I have a question.

How well does it work on a wet rope?

 

[Burnham]

Don't know, but will speculate that, just as with DRT, adjustments to the number of wraps/turns of your friction hitch might be needed. I'll bet otherwise it's no biggie.

 

[kevin bingham]

There really is no reason to not use a nice solid rated cord. I feel that I have found differences to resonse in even humid versus dry days. kind of got to play with you hitch a little

 

[NickfromWI]

I could splice up a nice short 8mm beeline eye-eye with a small eye on one side for clipping to the harness and a big core-exposed eye on the other for girthing to the RW.

That would allow us to stick with a fully rated, chafe resistant cord that is small enough to girth onto the RW.

 

[sotc]

Burnham, the one thing in your argument that strikes me as off is, where would the friction to the small cord come from?