Singing Tree Rope Wrench Review.

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  • #27
I hear ya Burnham, the stuff I'm using is 1500#, but my next treestuff order has a tether in the cart, 5000# stuff :) I think it would be fine if it broke, but really, if it is inspected each use, i can't see how it would.

And I have an 8 on my saddle always ;) I could install it, stand on the rope, unlock the hitch and come down on my 8.

Gerry, I don't have a ball lock pin yet, Pat is gonna send me one :) the pics you see are of a stock Rope wrench.
 
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  • #29
canadiantreeman said:
I'm pretty much sold on the idea. I just need a midline attachable one to come out. And I'm ok to use Ddrt until that happens.

Nice review, Cary.

It beats the heck outta the unicender. IMO.
Click to expand...
not having midline is not a huge deal, it only takes a minute thread the wrench thru ;) but you can always get a ball lock pin, 5/16ths, 1" long and replace the top bushing with it, VIOLA' mid-line :)
 
pigwot said:
Burnham,
I see where you're coming from. A hitch designed to function alone on SRT is a hazard in my opinion, as it trades slide-ability for grip-ability.
A standard Ddrt hitch would never work alone on SRT as it would lock tight, but is inherently more safe when used on SRT with the RW.Gerry,
I just spoke to a manufacturer of the cup-handled, recessed lock pins and surprisingly he said they get almost no requests for them.
Have you seen them available in the 5/16" dia. 1.0" working length size?
Maybe marine supply companies...
Click to expand...

This is where we disagree, Pat. I do not believe that is a true statement in all cases. And if it's not true, then loss of the tether to the RW means you slide free down the SRT line.


High Scale said:
You thinking of a wire tether Burnham?
Click to expand...

No, not really. A wire is subject to wear from repeated flexing, just like a fabric tether, though would offer very good abrasion resistance. I think Cory's 5k tether will be fine, IF it's got enough meat to it so that a bit of abrasion isn't compromising a high percentage of the fibers.

That's the real reason I'd be a little leary of the 5mm stuff, not the breaking strength per se...it's just so small that a little wear is actually a lot, relative to the whole.

Look at it this way...if it were possible to have a tether that was comprised of only a couple of strands, but in new condition had a 5k breaking strength, it still would be risky to use, because erosion of a single strand would cut the BS by half.

No matter how strong a rope is, it it's skinny it's easier to damage by wear than a fatter one.
 
canadiantreeman said:
It beats the heck outta the unicender. IMO.
Click to expand...

You're kidding, right? Care to elaborate.

Burnham, good call. I think the RW is a super cool tool and I am glad that so many climbers are now willing to give an SRT working system a try but I felt uneasy when Kevin was able to get it accepted as "non" life support. I do understand the thought behind this but it still makes me uneasy.

Dave
 
As I have been working an F8 SRT set up.. I would really like to try the rope wrench now that it can installed mid line. Probably tends better that the revolver set up. I did most of that oak removal SRT until it was time to chunk it down...
SO on my list it goes. Probably just use some Ultra Tech cord I have for the tether. Good rating on it. I use a loop runner for my F8 tether right now... Something I have been meaning to improve anyway :lol:
 
Early on I tried single line with a friction hitch and found out right away that it didn't work. And also much later,, with some certain descending apparatus. With single line two devices in combination are far better than one. Many combos possible. The RW/FH is but one.
 
And also Cary.... I have been following your reviews on this and thanks for all your input on this new piece of gear. I was reading what you have over at Arbtalk as well.. Good work mang :thumbup:
 
I got a few of the recessed button pins and they are very high profile and not as aesthetically pleasing as the lower profile pins. I have not seen any real threat of the pin getting disengaged while climbing as you have to push and pull simultaneously.

While playing around with the wooden wrenches, I broke a few and others have broken a few while climbing. If the rope wrench spontaneously com-busts and you are on an accepted hitch, you will be ok. Just will have a pain getting down. Before I found the f8 revolver, I climbed on only a hitch which sucked but I never felt in danger of sliding out of control, my biggest problem was moving at all.

The Rope Wrench doesn't need to be accepted as non life support, IT IS NOT LIFE SUPPORT! there is no debate about that at all. If you climb with the rope wrench with out a fully functioning life supporting hitch, you are a jack ass and will probably die. I cant stress enough that the wrench IS NOT LIFE SUPPORT.
The wrench was over built in order that it would be bomb proof anyways. It will last a life time. The non-midline attacheable has no moving parts or QUESTIONS. Every mid-line attachable prototype that I have worked with has the potential for some sort of questions that are distracting to the central function of the wrench.

THe ZK 1 is easily modified to be midline attacheable which is a good thing. I do not like promoting the idea of climbing with only a hitch with out the wrench on although I did for years with the f8 revolver.

Streamlined will happen, but it really dont see it getting much better as far as function, just better as in terms of looks and sex appeal. I do want to make MB happy.


I recently got a unicender and have been pleasantly surprised that it is not as complicated to work as I thought. Better for ascent no doubt but working the tree is more awkward as you have to always look back at the uni and flip the line over and its not as natural or what I'm used to. Ive been using a hitch for 17 years now and I am very comfortable with a hitch. Needs a tending mechanism. Swinging and descending at the same time is a lot harder and a little scary with the UNI. I think I could get better at it with practice but it definitely is not as natural a process for me. I had a few heart stopping moments when first playing around with the uni.
 
gf beranek said:
Early on I tried single line with a friction hitch and found out right away that it didn't work. And also much later,, with some certain descending apparatus. With single line two devices in combination are far better than one. Many combos possible. The RW/FH is but one.
Click to expand...


I would be curious to experiment with other combos. What else is there?
 
ZK stands for Zack Kenner who is an arborist and metal artist in Chattanooga Tennessee who helped me extensively on this current metal design. He helped bring the concept from wood to metal.
 
kevin bingham said:
I would be curious to experiment with other combos. What else is there?
Click to expand...

In 2003 I went through a similar phase of discovery. I was able to accomplish the goal- sortof. I was using a blakes hitch. The split tail was made of 7/16" vectran hollow braid with a long full bury making it more like 1/2" or even closer to 9/16". I was using a 7 or 8 wrap blakes with the tail tucked under 4 or 5 of the wraps.

It worked fine. I could slide it up easy and it locked up reliably. There were 3 major faults that limited it's use:

1. It was very weight-dependant. When someone else tried it, we had to completely reconfigure the wraps/tucks. If someone sent me up a chainsaw, it would occasionally lock up too tight.
2. It would let me go, but sometimes it would pick up speed, go faster than I liked, and sometimes required "tweaking" mid descent to get it to stop.
3. Even being vectran (which is tough stuff) it wore pretty quick.

This was all on 1/2" Yale XTC and it was just before I got my first piece of Blaze. When I got the Blaze, of course it wouldn't work and rather than pursue the right rope combo for Blaze I acknowledged that I would have to wait 8 years for Kevin Bingham to find a proper fix to the prob.

love
nick
 
"Ive been using a hitch for 17 years now and I am very comfortable with a hitch." (Quoted from Kevin)

Really? That long? :) Sorry, Kevin. Just razzin' ya. We all tend to forget the heartstopping moments that we all experienced in the beginning of our climbing careers due to misuse or lack of knowledge of the tools we were using. But it wasn't not long before they became second nature.

I, too, had a lot of trouble learning SRT with the Uni. Most of my climbing career was done on tail-tied, doubled rope where the hitch was 18" to 20" above my saddle tie in. Having in more recent years become accustomed to using the hitch climber VT setup, I first tried the Uni in this position. I didn't like it. Lots of problems. Then I moved it to a 15" tether. Now this worked. It kept my friction-controlling hand high and my branch-grabbing hand low. It felt very natural. Limb walking, tending the Uni, as I would a hitch, in front of me was something that felt very familiar. I use SRT on everything now and have no inclination to go back to doubled rope for anything.

This, of course, has nothing to do with the Rope Wrench which, as I stated, from all accounts is a great tool. Not life support? Maybe. But the system won't work without it.

Dave
 
Thats cool, I hear you. I have committed myself to letting myself breakthrough the learning curve on the UNI. I have learned many times not to give up on something just cause I'm not good at it... yet....

You are right about the rope wrench, the system will not work without it, but... your life will be fine without it. Your life will not be fine if you are trying to use this alone or with something that is not life support. Does that make sense? It is different to be stuck in a tree an have a hard time coming down than crashing to the ground uncontrolled.

If the wrench is on or if its on or off, it doesn't make a difference to your being alive. Or it shouldnt if you are diligen in tying good, safe, and stand alone hitches.

I have had the wrench pull tested and broken in every direction and it exceeds 6,500 lbs whichever way you pull it. If I were to put that on the wrench, (MBS 5,400, etc) it might give the impression that it was meant to be used as a fall arrest tool or as a connecting device. Not the impression I want to give. It has to be loud and clear that it is not life support and not intended to be used as a stand alone tool. That is really the only thing about this tool that has to be completely and thoroughly understood in order to use it.
 
kevin bingham said:
Thats cool, I hear you. I have committed myself to letting myself breakthrough the learning curve on the UNI. I have learned many times not to give up on something just cause I'm not good at it... yet....

You are right about the rope wrench, the system will not work without it, but... your life will be fine without it. Your life will not be fine if you are trying to use this alone or with something that is not life support. Does that make sense? It is different to be stuck in a tree an have a hard time coming down than crashing to the ground uncontrolled.

If the wrench is on or if its on or off, it doesn't make a difference to your being alive. Or it shouldnt if you are diligen in tying good, safe, and stand alone hitches.

I have had the wrench pull tested and broken in every direction and it exceeds 6,500 lbs whichever way you pull it. If I were to put that on the wrench, (MBS 5,400, etc) it might give the impression that it was meant to be used as a fall arrest tool or as a connecting device. Not the impression I want to give. It has to be loud and clear that it is not life support and not intended to be used as a stand alone tool. That is really the only thing about this tool that has to be completely and thoroughly understood in order to use it.
Click to expand...

The facts from some hitch-only experiments on single line simply do not support this assertion. See Nick's post as but one example.

I fully respect what you have done Kevin, but you can be mistaken in this.
 
kevin bingham said:
I would be curious to experiment with other combos. What else is there?
Click to expand...

Any time you can ease friction by spreading it out a descent is going to be much smoother and controlled. Like your RW in combo with a FH. With single line descents and the devices we use for them it is very easy to set the devices in tandem. Two figure eights in tandem can really smooth out a descent. A figure eight in tandem with a Petzel Stop or Kong type bobbin descender is much smoother and controlled descent too. And too, a munter hitch can be incorporated into the system. The possible combos are as endless as the devices out there.
 
Please elaborate. what hitch only experiments have you found? Where can I find this data? It is important that I see these. It would be very helpful. The slim pickings that I have found and my own observations with my own life as test subject support my assertion that hitches on single line are quite safe if configured correctly.

The treemagineers CE rated hitch for grab function Ocean Polyester on tachyon or safety blue on a single rope is solid.

Here is an excerpt from an article on the Machard tresse that I found where they did some studies of hitches on a single line:

"Tests have been done on the Machard tresse, the Blake and the 3-laps Prusik. Frederic Mathias has worked on those tests with "Cousin", a French rope company, with the following results. The climbing line used for the tests was 1/2 inch High Vee Blue from New England ropes. The Blake was made out of the same rope. The 3-laps Prusik was made out of a 10mm diameter dynamic kernmantel rope (mountaineering rope).
Two tests were done. A static test was performed by pulling on the friction knot straight down on a single rope. When breakage appeared it was the climbing line that was broken first where it was constricted by the friction knot. The tensile strength with the Blake was 1987 daN at the breaking point, for the Prusik it was 2054 daN. The result with the Machard was particular. This knot started slipping at 600 daN, then catch, then slip again and so on. The double advantage being that it doesn't break the climbing rope and would have the capacity to keep an eventual shock load lower than 600 daN. So in case of a fall, a part of the energy would be absorbed by the knot which would keep the shock load to a safe level for body.
The dynamic test reproduced actual working conditions. A 80 kg mass was dropped in a factor 2 fall (distance of fall equals twice the length of the rope). None of the three knots failed to stop the fall but the Machard tresse slipped about 10 inches before stopping. The dynamic test showed again that the Machard tresse is able to absorb energy. Thus this knot is not potentially dangerous on a tensile strength point of view, even with a relative small diameter. To the contrary it shows very interesting and unique features. "

My own research and experiments back this up. One of my own non scientific experiments with the rope wrench has been to descend down the rope with a piece of string as a tether, as I descend down the rope, I cut the tether with scissors.

I would not hesitate to repeat this at any height. I am very confident in my own particular hitch. Not sure about others but I trust my life to my hitch everyday. When I first started climbing single line I did not have the f8 revolver, I did not have the rope wrench, I would use my feet as a friction sink, I would use my hands. I never experienced uncontrolled sliding, only locked up frustratingly hard to move hitches. Never once was scared that my hitch would not hold me. The F* revolver and rope wrench came as tools to help go down, not stop one from going down.

PLEASE, I would definitely like to see any and all tests that have been done regarding hitches on a single line. It would be very helpful for me to see these. thank you.
 
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