Log arch vs. parbuckling vs. rolling tailboard?

davidwyby

Desert Beaver
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@Tree09 here’s one for you.

I currently use a heavy duty tilt bed trailer and gin poles/12k winch in my truck to skid logs up on the trailer. Like a rollback tow truck basically. The trick is getting the logs started up the ramp…if I forget to put a roller under before I fell the tree. Also trying to get another layer on a stack. Some logs are larger and require a couple/few pulleys to get enough force to drag them. I use a redirect pulley attached to one side or the other of the trailer to shift the logs sideways to make rows. I need to fix/mod my peavey for larger logs.

I am going to try parbuckling today but I have also though about a log arch with the top cross piece being as wide as the trailer, with a pin able sliding trolly or multiple attachment points so that I can direct the logs side to side as they are stacked.

Ideas and input appreciated, thanks.
 
Have you tried simply dropping the trailer and then loading it with the truck poles, basically like how hot shot truckers use their poles to load stuff on their trailer? Back truck up to log so it'll pick it up sideways, lift, back up to trailer side, then lower? You're grabbing huge pieces usually from what I've seen, and you would be able to back the truck right up to the log using it like one would use a loader. That would likely cut down on the dragging, even if you used the truck like a skidder the poles would elevate the front greatly lowering the force needed to drag it and without the trailer you would be able to back up right to it. When you pick up the log with the poles a couple ropes acting as tag lines can be used to stabilize the load quickly, simply belayed to the truck so it won't swing all over the place if you're solo, makes driving around with a load on a lot easier, i use cleats on my trailer with poles so it's really quick to do and really helps eliminate the load swinging all around. With some tongs you wouldn't have to crib logs, but unless you fab up some massive ones some of the logs you handle would still likely need chokers, no biggie especially if you just roll the log or pick it up a bit where you can get under it to set the chokers.

Pole trucks are awesome imo, it's a simple rugged way to turn a truck into a lifting machine that is capable of outlifting far more expensive and bulky machines for pennies on the dollar. Their limitation is that they aren't really capable of loading the bed of said truck. No biggie, but it's something that needs to be addressed if you need to do that. I messed up and didn't get a cdl, so I've been focusing on staying under cdl limits. To do that I'm gonna need to load a trailer and load the truck, so my plan is to use the other part of a winch truck: the rolling tailboard. The rolling tailboard allows you to load skids on and off the truck/ trailer with ease, so you could build bunks to hold logs, basically stage them on the ground, load them with the poles, tie them down while it's all on the ground, then winch the whole works on the truck or trailer. To get the skid off the trailer the winch is slacked a bit and the skid is either pulled off by tying it to something and driving forward, going in reverse and braking hard, or has additional rollers on the bed that push up and gently roll the skid back called kick rolls.

I've been wanting to build a bed for my truck for years like this, a winch or two, rolling tailboard, and even a simple kick roll, and then make a bunch of skids for different jobs. One would be set up as a welding rig, another would be a chip box (likely with an i beam and trolley with chainfall setup on the ceiling for loading logs on smaller jobs), one as a log bunk, a water tank, etc. That way i would use 1 truck to do anything and everything i need to do, and any additional trucks would be set up the same way so they all could be used interchangeably, simply back up and load the needed skid, tie it down and you're ready to go. To dump stuff like chips or other similar skids i would set them on the ground, raise the poles that are stored in the bed, and then lift the front of the skid up with the poles to dump. Not as cool or quick as a dump bed, but likely lighter and cheaper, and it'll suit my needs. I could also make a dumping skid if this isn't good enough, haven't made it that far yet. I was even thinking of building different attachments (say like a box blade for grading my driveways and stuff, maybe a big clamshell, etc) for the truck, using a hitch attachment and the winch to lift/lower or power the works. It's really a very versatile setup as you already know.

On my log trailer i wanted gin poles, but i also wanted it to quickly and easily load and unload itself, all as a self contained unit. I decided to accomplish this by having a tripod at the front of the trailer, and gin poles in the back, basically giving myself 2 different pick points so i can drift the load between them. I kinda got the idea from old school cargo ships which raised a boom over the cargo hatch and another one over the side, guyed everything in place, and then used 2 winches as load lines to shuttle stuff back and forth. I use 1 winch on the front of the trailer, led to a block on tripod (the distance calculated so the winch has the correct fleet angle to spool well), which is then led to the poles on the back of the trailer. The poles have a rope that holds a block that redirects the winch line, so as i lift a log i can lower the rope on a bollard, which then drifts the pulley by the load angle back towards the tripod, which loads the log in the trailer. When i finish converting it to my 10k pound winch I'll build some multi part line pipe bollard blocks to increase the capacity of the rope part, that way i can still use bull rope for lowering since it's so easy to handle and is very lightweight. The trailer has sides so the log is contained in the trailer, and to unload i simply winch up on the log and lower a rope belayed to the front of the trailer, swinging the log out the back. It's not super ideal, but it's very functional and does fine for my needs, and only requires 1 winch. The poles are subjected to a force pulling them backwards so they must be guyed quite securely, all poles are supposed to be guyed for saftey anyways, these just see a far greater force than normal so it's more critical. I considered doing a spreader pipe connecting the tripod to the poles to resist this force, but i have pretty much decided that simply guying it would be lighter, simpler and better for my needs because i wanted to adjust my poles a bunch for doing stuff other than trees.

You could do something similar by adding a lifting point like another set of poles on the back of the trailer, your truck poles acting just like the tripod on my setup. Then you would have 2 pick points, which would accomplish what you're trying to do too and would load logs straight in the back like you've been doing. You could add another winch line, or simply do what I've been doing which is using ropes to lower a redirect block, the line angles between the log and the poles on the truck drifting the block to the front of the trailer. I would also recommend maybe adding some log bunks, it's so much easier/safer when the log can't roll off the side crushing you, and you can simply keep stacking logs and they'll roll by themselves to the sides. Since it's an equipment trailer that you likely use for other jobs than moving logs you could make the bunks removable, simply set the bunks on the trailer with the poles when you're doing trees, use a few tie downs to hold it in place, and then can load more logs easier so you're hauling max weight capacity rather than how well you can stack them on that particular load, kinda negating the need to shift them sideways much.
 
I wanted to wait for Kyle to respond. Now that he has, I'll add my $0.02. I agree with everything he said by the way. I just have my solution to offer, so to speak.

Build longer poles!

The gin poles on my last truck where actually a folding A frame. About 16ft overall length.

I'd back a trailer up cockeyed to the load, make my pick, suspend it, then pull forward til the trailer straightened out under the pick, then lower onto the trailer. I could stack from one side to the other, loading a five foot high bunk. Unloading was "reverse of installation" or secure the load to an anchor and pull forward.
 
@Tree09 here’s one for you.

I currently use a heavy duty tilt bed trailer and gin poles/12k winch in my truck to skid logs up on the trailer. Like a rollback tow truck basically. The trick is getting the logs started up the ramp…if I forget to put a roller under before I fell the tree. Also trying to get another layer on a stack. Some logs are larger and require a couple/few pulleys to get enough force to drag them. I use a redirect pulley attached to one side or the other of the trailer to shift the logs sideways to make rows. I need to fix/mod my peavey for larger logs.

I am going to try parbuckling today but I have also though about a log arch with the top cross piece being as wide as the trailer, with a pin able sliding trolly or multiple attachment points so that I can direct the logs side to side as they are stacked.

Ideas and input appreciated, thanks.
A mini-loader and grapple. If you're going to haul material, even a small one would do wonders.
Something that can pick up one end of a log at a time means you can get that log onto a log cart and onto and off of a trailer, quickly



Super versatile in unexpected ways... recently, the tenant's son couldn't find his truck keys (one-ton with lightweight, short flatbed), so I picked up the rear end using a chain, moved it forward 8' and swung the rear end over several feet, giving us access.
 
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No, there was turf damage. That job was for my wife’s grandpa. That stump ended up being a 14’ grind, the other was 24’, and two more were 8’ers. 20 yards of topsoil was brought in for reclamation. Seeded and a month later good to mow over.
 
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  • #14
I should have mentioned I used to run a rolling tailboard when I built skid mounted portable buildings. Good idea for making a truck into a Swiss Army knife.

I could lift logs when the gin pole frame is in the deuce and I have planned to do exactly as kave says. But the dodge would wheelie if I tried to pick up these logs.

@SeanKroll trying to avoid that cost…not enough $ in my tree work for it.
 
A mini is sweet, there's no arguing that. They're so handy owning one makes sense even if you aren't doing trees, they're that handy. However with poles on his big truck, i bet his capacity is wayyyyyyy better, likely over 10k pounds on his deuce. He also already owns the truck and poles, so there's that. He's picking up large tree trunks, and it seems like truck access is available on most jobs. I see no problem with using poles, he should be able to pick up massive logs and gently load his trailer, with the ac blowing in his face listening to music. I was looking into adding them on my tandem axle truck and running it before i got sick, being able to pick up any log i ever wanted to with tens of thousands of pounds capacity, a 20k pound or more winch simply moving the biggest stuff around like twigs. The big trucks have like a 35 ton or higher capacity, it's insane, and at a certain size a mobile pick and carry machine like a pole truck becomes pretty useful on a job. Even a smaller version is a way to do it, different setups and areas can vary a lot from how well they work, you need to be able to get the truck to it or winch the stuff out, but they are probably better than most would probably think in the right settings.

Imagine bucking everything to 20 foot lengths regardless of size and then relaxing in the truck for a bit loading them out. I'm going for a smaller version of that, but my trailer I'm building has the lifting capacity of a full size skid for self loading and total lifting capacity of two full size skids to load another trailer. That's a productive machine, able to back up to a fence, winch the logs to itself and load them, one trip thru the yard empty and one out full. With a bigger log arch i can winch them out to where i can work without harming the grass, and it costs a bunch less than a mini, just a few hours with a welder and some scrap modifying a scrap axle off a truck or trailer. Definitely not a mini, but it's a viable option. It's kinda like a chipper winch on wheels, 15 feet plus in the air, in the truck relaxing on a seat driving stuff around. If i really wanna go nuts i might get a semi trailer axle and make a dedicated heavy lift trailer crane, because the axle capacity and front end weight/leverage determine the lifting capacity, the longer the vehicle the better for capacity. Could probably do around 20k capacity no problem, and that's using a pickup truck driving it around, possibly on a front hitch for visibility on the job. When you can pick up that much and move it around it'll pretty much do whatever it is you're doing, yes you'll beat me with a mini but i could do the job in an air conditioned or heated shaded dry spot sitting in a comfy chair pressing a button a couple times and creeping the truck around while i eat a sandwich. That matters when it's your second job and it's hour 14 of the day as you get older, I'm sorry I'm a wimp anymore :lol:

In the oil field winch trucks are used for everything, many too big to even go on the roads. While seemingly nothing but a big flatbed truck they are used as semi trucks for hauling trailers, the trailers usually without jacks are laid on the ground and simply lifted by the winch to hook up for towing, probably because they keep busting the jacks up in the mud. All of the components of a drilling rig are built on simple skids, and the winch trucks load them all over the rolling tailboard with the winch and drive them to the new destination and then reassemble them again, sometimes hanging off the back so much they barely balance on the truck. They are the cranes too, lifting the components on top of each other, unloading semis, standing up water tanks, etc. They are also the rescue machines, a tow truck to rescue machines and trucks that get in trouble and get stuck, and their simple, very structurally strong design allows them to be operated very close to their tipping point, as shown here. Yes these are massive trucks, but they show what these things can do, and you can mentally scale that down to different sizes of vehicles and kind of imagine what these things are capable of for as simple as they are, old school rigging still a viable option for some. And yes a mini is probably better, just so we're clear, but this does work as it has for a long time, as basically the wierd cousin of a yarder.

 
A mini is sweet, there's no arguing that. They're so handy owning one makes sense even if you aren't doing trees, they're that handy. However with poles on his big truck, i bet his capacity is wayyyyyyy better, likely over 10k pounds on his deuce. He also already owns the truck and poles, so there's that. He's picking up large tree trunks, and it seems like truck access is available on most jobs. I see no problem with using poles, he should be able to pick up massive logs and gently load his trailer, with the ac blowing in his face listening to music. I was looking into adding them on my tandem axle truck and running it before i got sick, being able to pick up any log i ever wanted to with tens of thousands of pounds capacity, a 20k pound or more winch simply moving the biggest stuff around like twigs. The big trucks have like a 35 ton or higher capacity, it's insane, and at a certain size a mobile pick and carry machine like a pole truck becomes pretty useful on a job. Even a smaller version is a way to do it, different setups and areas can vary a lot from how well they work, you need to be able to get the truck to it or winch the stuff out, but they are probably better than most would probably think in the right settings.

Imagine bucking everything to 20 foot lengths regardless of size and then relaxing in the truck for a bit loading them out. I'm going for a smaller version of that, but my trailer I'm building has the lifting capacity of a full size skid for self loading and total lifting capacity of two full size skids to load another trailer. That's a productive machine, able to back up to a fence, winch the logs to itself and load them, one trip thru the yard empty and one out full. With a bigger log arch i can winch them out to where i can work without harming the grass, and it costs a bunch less than a mini, just a few hours with a welder and some scrap modifying a scrap axle off a truck or trailer. Definitely not a mini, but it's a viable option. It's kinda like a chipper winch on wheels, 15 feet plus in the air, in the truck relaxing on a seat driving stuff around. If i really wanna go nuts i might get a semi trailer axle and make a dedicated heavy lift trailer crane, because the axle capacity and front end weight/leverage determine the lifting capacity, the longer the vehicle the better for capacity. Could probably do around 20k capacity no problem, and that's using a pickup truck driving it around, possibly on a front hitch for visibility on the job. When you can pick up that much and move it around it'll pretty much do whatever it is you're doing, yes you'll beat me with a mini but i could do the job in an air conditioned or heated shaded dry spot sitting in a comfy chair pressing a button a couple times and creeping the truck around while i eat a sandwich. That matters when it's your second job and it's hour 14 of the day as you get older, I'm sorry I'm a wimp anymore :lol:

In the oil field winch trucks are used for everything, many too big to even go on the roads. While seemingly nothing but a big flatbed truck they are used as semi trucks for hauling trailers, the trailers usually without jacks are laid on the ground and simply lifted by the winch to hook up for towing, probably because they keep busting the jacks up in the mud. All of the components of a drilling rig are built on simple skids, and the winch trucks load them all over the rolling tailboard with the winch and drive them to the new destination and then reassemble them again, sometimes hanging off the back so much they barely balance on the truck. They are the cranes too, lifting the components on top of each other, unloading semis, standing up water tanks, etc. They are also the rescue machines, a tow truck to rescue machines and trucks that get in trouble and get stuck, and their simple, very structurally strong design allows them to be operated very close to their tipping point, as shown here. Yes these are massive trucks, but they show what these things can do, and you can mentally scale that down to different sizes of vehicles and kind of imagine what these things are capable of for as simple as they are, old school rigging still a viable option for some. And yes a mini is probably better, just so we're clear, but this does work as it has for a long time, as basically the wierd cousin of a yarder.


Phukin love you Kyle, a lot of that coulda come from my own keyboard.

I love hydraulics as much as the next guy, and more than the one after him. That said, hydraulics is expensive! Pole/winch trucks are the OG GigaChad do all rig. From F series "Timberjammers" to the big Kenworths from Kyle's video, they do the job, and oftentimes, there really isn't a better solution, at least not on hand.

We're a bunch of arborists, I feel I shouldn't have to explain just how much can be done from a single elevated pulley...

This is one of those areas where it's not the equipment that's the limiting factor, it's your imagination, really.

Put a heavy duty headache rack on your truck, add long poles and anchor points, and get at it.
I've still got the rack from the old truck, ive been collecting bits and bobs, soon I'll need to find a welder to zap it all together.
 
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  • #19
Phukin love you Kyle, a lot of that coulda come from my own keyboard.

I love hydraulics as much as the next guy, and more than the one after him. That said, hydraulics is expensive! Pole/winch trucks are the OG GigaChad do all rig. From F series "Timberjammers" to the big Kenworths from Kyle's video, they do the job, and oftentimes, there really isn't a better solution, at least not on hand.

We're a bunch of arborists, I feel I shouldn't have to explain just how much can be done from a single elevated pulley...

This is one of those areas where it's not the equipment that's the limiting factor, it's your imagination, really.

Put a heavy duty headache rack on your truck, add long poles and anchor points, and get at it.
I've still got the rack from the old truck, ive been collecting bits and bobs, soon I'll need to find a welder to zap it all together.
We have an old milermatic 35 or two in mothballs
 
Looks like I could take the tailgate off, raise the boom, and side load the trailer. Longer green logs will be a lot heavier though.

Maybe add a stop bracket to the hitch for pushing and so I could lift one end with the boom 🤔

View attachment 136136

artworks-iAGqVyN8CMvlvvcB-RRzPpg-t500x500.jpg


I'll keep saying it, build longer poles! More reach, more height, more versatile.

Ps, don't dent your dodge!
 
Can the rear axle and suspension withstand the increased leverage? Longer poles will add a lot of load on the fulcrum point.

I'm tempted, but a bit reluctant at the same time to try that with my van. It is a reinforced version and has already a built-in crane in the rear doors, a small one rated 1100 lbs with a 40" boom. Quite short, but even not lifting the max load, the rear drops seriously and I'm concerned to load it more. There's a mounting point to add a standing leg to help, I can make one, but that would cancel any needed movement of the van.
 
Can the rear axle and suspension withstand the increased leverage? Longer poles will add a lot of load on the fulcrum point.

I'm tempted, but a bit reluctant at the same time to try that with my van. It is a reinforced version and has already a built-in crane in the rear doors, a small one rated 1100 lbs with a 40" boom. Quite short, but even not lifting the max load, the rear drops seriously and I'm concerned to load it more. There's a mounting point to add a standing leg to help, I can make one, but that would cancel any needed movement of the van.
Add helper springs. If it's REALLY heavy, you can put Jack stands under the truck. With my old Fords, I simply ignore the possibility of failure, seems to have worked thus far. Dunno how many 80s F series trucks are kicking around France, but you might check into it, and your domestic equivalents.

Gotta build some poles for Gertrude. She has some ridiculous springs under her. I don't know what exactly the Ute Tribe was using her for when she wasn't plowing, but it was HEAVY. She has the mounting holes for a fifth wheel plate in her bed, and the wiring pigtail as well. She also hardly squats with 3000lbs in the bed. Pretty stout for an 85 F250.

Then there's Kyle's Derrick and crane thread, which gets my mind racing everytime I think about it...
 
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  • #25
Can the rear axle and suspension withstand the increased leverage? Longer poles will add a lot of load on the fulcrum point.

I'm tempted, but a bit reluctant at the same time to try that with my van. It is a reinforced version and has already a built-in crane in the rear doors, a small one rated 1100 lbs with a 40" boom. Quite short, but even not lifting the max load, the rear drops seriously and I'm concerned to load it more. There's a mounting point to add a standing leg to help, I can make one, but that would cancel any needed movement of the van.
That leverage is my concern.

The axle is huge. Springs just Ok, it’s a 2500 not 3500. I intend to add airbags. Worst load scenario, Jack in the hitch receiver or something.

None of that is a concern when it’s mounted in this

IMG_5311.jpeg
 
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