MasterBlaster
Administrator Emeritus
I've been doing that for ages, (nipping the sides) but I don't go so deep.
hinge du jour
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murphy4trees
TreeHouser
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- #152
Nipping the sides is generally done to prevent a string of twisting bark from ripping down the trunk under the notch and causing that side of the hinge to hold on, which can throw the fall far off the lay.... the mirrored dutchman looks kinda like that, but has a different application...
"Nipping the corners" is particularity important in some species.. Hemlock comes to mind here... And this is another reason where a high stump shot can cause trouble... the larger the differential between the backcut and the floor of the notch, the greater the chance that twisting grain can cross over under the notch...
A wider notch lessens the potential effect of the above to change the direction of fall... After the tree picks up a lot of speed and momentum, what happens after the face closes is not going to have as much effect... Also the size of the piece matters, the smaller it is, the greater the chance of the corners holding and pulling it off the lay, so nipping the corners is often used more in the air than on the ground...
"Nipping the corners" is particularity important in some species.. Hemlock comes to mind here... And this is another reason where a high stump shot can cause trouble... the larger the differential between the backcut and the floor of the notch, the greater the chance that twisting grain can cross over under the notch...
A wider notch lessens the potential effect of the above to change the direction of fall... After the tree picks up a lot of speed and momentum, what happens after the face closes is not going to have as much effect... Also the size of the piece matters, the smaller it is, the greater the chance of the corners holding and pulling it off the lay, so nipping the corners is often used more in the air than on the ground...
MasterBlaster
Administrator Emeritus
Yes, I'm aware of that.
Thanks for explaining!
Thanks for explaining!
theTreeSpyder
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We've seen snap-cuts bulldogged by machinery before; loading system with more forces can resolve as well as create issues; also show exaggerated forces to study in magnification of compressions and tensions
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i too generally think of nipping as bark or green layers deep;
Preferring to preserve outer extremes on long axis of hinge for steering the center of gravity force point
>>into same path as extremes of narrow axis of hinge usher the shape of the tree.
>>both axis's relevant.
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This space hear, was forged from it's inception to be decidedly different than TB and AS.
TB seems to focus more on schooling, certs and racing etc. perhaps trys to seem shinier;
AS seems more towards busy sales focus; more newbie crowd at many times; sometimes hard to spell with only 1 S on end.
Hear, seems more gritty reality of tuff, dangerous work; the real side of un-reality tv
>>also draws in that scope amazingly the families that put of with our tree-affliction, as another real-life balance.
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Thanx Butch!
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i too generally think of nipping as bark or green layers deep;
Preferring to preserve outer extremes on long axis of hinge for steering the center of gravity force point
>>into same path as extremes of narrow axis of hinge usher the shape of the tree.
>>both axis's relevant.
.
This space hear, was forged from it's inception to be decidedly different than TB and AS.
TB seems to focus more on schooling, certs and racing etc. perhaps trys to seem shinier;
AS seems more towards busy sales focus; more newbie crowd at many times; sometimes hard to spell with only 1 S on end.
Hear, seems more gritty reality of tuff, dangerous work; the real side of un-reality tv
>>also draws in that scope amazingly the families that put of with our tree-affliction, as another real-life balance.
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Thanx Butch!
MasterBlaster
Administrator Emeritus
You are most welcome, brotherman.
Marc-Antoine
TreeHouser
No, not at all.
The dutchman is basically a very narrow notch inside the usual notch, on a partial or full width of the hinge ( intended or not). The narrow notch, often just a kerf, closes early and redistributes the fulcrum point and the axis of the fall.
In your cut, nipping the corner, even so deeply, doesn't change one bit the shape of the notch. It just makes the hinge narrower, that's all. With a well balanced tree, you won't see a difference in the fall, contrary to the dutchman. Your cut has nothing to do with a dutchman.
I used the deep nipping on a 32" diameter beech which was close to a fence wall and I didn't have the room to place my chainsaw on the far side. Handy. The spar landed exactly where the hinge told it to do, no side move.
MasterBlaster
Administrator Emeritus
murphy4trees
TreeHouser
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #158
Most of the time that is what happens... you can get away with removing the end of the hinge on one side, , leaving it unbalanced, and it will still go to the lay... HOWEVER, every once in a while it doesn't.. I've seen them turn ... its very unpredictable... Had a big chestnut oak spar turn do it. with a gorgeous straight hinge, all except I took 3" off the far end. Was a 28" bar, so you;d think that taking such a little bit of the end wouldn't matter much... threw the lay off a few degrees, maybe as much as 10... spar clipped an existing stump in the yard, which made it roll hard and fast, right into the house, very minor crack to the foundation... owner was cool, but that could have been costly....
So lesson learned... Then I tried to use it to on purpose to turn trees during he fall... It;s very unreliable, and I never did figure out what variables made it work or not.... The unreliability is why it was discouraged from practice by the loggers.
do it 100 times and see if they all go to the lay.... drawing conclusions from one cut is not recommended.. And the term dutchman is pretty broad... This cut certainly qualifies... If we are going to converse intelligently, we need to define our terms..
theTreeSpyder
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In my imagery/ model to visualize understand by
Dutch close face compression to lean side earlier than offside;
>>can offer offside as easiest path of relief as a forward position to funnel force flow into
>>as hopefully tapered hinge in backfield pulling same direction in unison
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Full face Dutch offers no such easy path to the on going rushing forward forces.
>> mostly accidentally in felling, so much force charging forward set against itself/no path of relief type trauma
>> can use some in dropping shorter horizonal branches
>> in topping can sometimes use to slam shut and hop over fence if orchestrated forces right.
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So I make distinction between full or lean side Dutch
Also look to use same principal 100 times in climbing and bucking and NOT use felling on same job cuz amplified forces very dangerous and can unpredictability violate other mechanic in system, so really with Daniel on that
>> may talk/ play in felling terms where forces larges easier to see
>> any time not steering into pulling forces
>> sometimes elected to not put in easy lay to lean just to test theories, including softer hit by not feeding directly into fiercest gravity pull.
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I think stage 1 of Dutch close is push face and hinge compression remains pivot as long as is most loaded event
>> push in face stage just relieves part of pivot load of compressed area of hinge
But, YES stage2 is when close is most loaded point, massive pivotal change
>> all at once taking leverage from load and give it to hinge fibre for greatest ratio change.
>> massive change as inertia is flowing
>> I think if angle of this stage1 to 2 change if too shallow is worst in felling
>> barber chair with folded sit back can be from early close in face or other obstruction to path
Overwhelming forces rushing, suddenly no open path seems can also over rule the constitution of the spar especially weak species, deformity, separate outer greener layers on front side from more welded in bone core rings.
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Also, where system is at as far as tearoff on lean side, and how fast it can be offers as relief.
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In bucking with top compression, many times instead of folding straight up favored fold off to side some, Dutch top offering side as open easier path and tapering hinge to pull same way
>> to fold to longer, less loaded path, and use some of tree force to do so.
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Face to path, Dutch to to side it wants to go, to push to path you want as easier while tapered hinge pulls same
>> real slick when you can get a stone skip pop across type of throw, rather than slower, stalling.
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Also favour in climbing sweeping limbs sideways, face to path
>> realize can't get true horizontal sweep and offer sliding down path of relief slightly downward
>> tapered hinge pulling up as on bottom Dutch close is pushing up
Dutch close face compression to lean side earlier than offside;
>>can offer offside as easiest path of relief as a forward position to funnel force flow into
>>as hopefully tapered hinge in backfield pulling same direction in unison
.
Full face Dutch offers no such easy path to the on going rushing forward forces.
>> mostly accidentally in felling, so much force charging forward set against itself/no path of relief type trauma
>> can use some in dropping shorter horizonal branches
>> in topping can sometimes use to slam shut and hop over fence if orchestrated forces right.
.
So I make distinction between full or lean side Dutch
Also look to use same principal 100 times in climbing and bucking and NOT use felling on same job cuz amplified forces very dangerous and can unpredictability violate other mechanic in system, so really with Daniel on that
>> may talk/ play in felling terms where forces larges easier to see
>> any time not steering into pulling forces
>> sometimes elected to not put in easy lay to lean just to test theories, including softer hit by not feeding directly into fiercest gravity pull.
.
I think stage 1 of Dutch close is push face and hinge compression remains pivot as long as is most loaded event
>> push in face stage just relieves part of pivot load of compressed area of hinge
But, YES stage2 is when close is most loaded point, massive pivotal change
>> all at once taking leverage from load and give it to hinge fibre for greatest ratio change.
>> massive change as inertia is flowing
>> I think if angle of this stage1 to 2 change if too shallow is worst in felling
>> barber chair with folded sit back can be from early close in face or other obstruction to path
Overwhelming forces rushing, suddenly no open path seems can also over rule the constitution of the spar especially weak species, deformity, separate outer greener layers on front side from more welded in bone core rings.
.
Also, where system is at as far as tearoff on lean side, and how fast it can be offers as relief.
.
In bucking with top compression, many times instead of folding straight up favored fold off to side some, Dutch top offering side as open easier path and tapering hinge to pull same way
>> to fold to longer, less loaded path, and use some of tree force to do so.
.
Face to path, Dutch to to side it wants to go, to push to path you want as easier while tapered hinge pulls same
>> real slick when you can get a stone skip pop across type of throw, rather than slower, stalling.
.
Also favour in climbing sweeping limbs sideways, face to path
>> realize can't get true horizontal sweep and offer sliding down path of relief slightly downward
>> tapered hinge pulling up as on bottom Dutch close is pushing up
flushcut
TreeHouser
Coming from you I'll take that as a compliment.
But yes the "I'm too lazy" cut should revolutionize the arb world, rock it right down to it's roots. Hell maybe even the logging industry will adopt such a silly cut. Carry on with you silliness.
'inverted dutchman'....I've been doing that sort of cut with short bars for years, you might have invented a name, but not the technique...and yes, all it does is shorten the hinge. Actually quite a useful sequence of cuts when you are way up top on spikes and can't be bothered to send down for a bigger saw (or you are a tiny tree surgeon and are using the biggest one you've got already...) Wouldn't go quite that deep on the sides though, just enough to allow the short bar to do the job.
As for the incomplete bore cut and release a few pages back, well, that's all it is.
As for the incomplete bore cut and release a few pages back, well, that's all it is.
murphy4trees
TreeHouser
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #163
Not quite there Bermy..
Its the inverted shelf and the mirrored dutchman... the latter of which I posted a few pics on here some time ago .....
Its the inverted shelf and the mirrored dutchman... the latter of which I posted a few pics on here some time ago .....
theTreeSpyder
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i guess what's in a name; Dutch does sound cool; but to be consistent..
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To me, Dutch is an early interruption in path ; but not down field, rather directly in the face of hinge mechanic.
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In felling, have used to offset sidelean, and also kinda weave thru other trees in path as field side interruptions
>>kinda curve or even bounce head and/or stem thru to open path as filed obstructions to path, at high leveraged positions.
>>so use Dutch push in face and other obstacles in filed as pushes in concert.
>>have gotten some nice < and > effects; need to have room for some run before bounce generally
>>so generally using more of a step/tiered Dutchman rather than kerf type.
All of this playing with fire tho, can violate stem/other mechanics cuz so powerful.
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So, fer me, reverse Dutch a little counter-intuitive.
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To me, Dutch is an early interruption in path ; but not down field, rather directly in the face of hinge mechanic.
.
In felling, have used to offset sidelean, and also kinda weave thru other trees in path as field side interruptions
>>kinda curve or even bounce head and/or stem thru to open path as filed obstructions to path, at high leveraged positions.
>>so use Dutch push in face and other obstacles in filed as pushes in concert.
>>have gotten some nice < and > effects; need to have room for some run before bounce generally
>>so generally using more of a step/tiered Dutchman rather than kerf type.
All of this playing with fire tho, can violate stem/other mechanics cuz so powerful.
.
So, fer me, reverse Dutch a little counter-intuitive.
murphy4trees
TreeHouser
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- #165
murphy4trees
TreeHouser
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #166
Actually not just hard to reach... it was impossible to reach ... unless I was going to put the bucket and boom across the front of the hinge, which could only be done to start the back cut. Even then it would require a time consuming and unnecessary re-positioning of the bucket....
While flushcut may still think this is a lazy man's cut, I would venture a guess that he doesn't use a bucket much... One of the main differences between climbing and using a bucket is the bucket's lack of mobility, often forcing the op to cut and rig in a way that would not be required from rope and saddle. Working from the bucket is a little more of a head game due to those limitations..
I'll often switch up the rigging points with redirects and satellite rigging points, multiple times that a climber would have to work a lot harder to achieve. And creative rigging is often needed to keep the bucket and boom out of the rigging path when a climber could just shimmy over to the other side of the tree to make the cut.
Because climbing is such a physically demanding part of the job, there is a major focus on the climbing aspect of tree work, and rightly so. Lots of focus on climbing gear and technique. This focus seems to have overshadowed the cutting and rigging techniques among arborists... That's evident from the forums and youtube videos.. (Obviously where there are loggers involved the focus is going to be more on falling / cutting techniques)
When movement is so fast and easy with the bucket, the focus on climbing skills and gear goes to zero, and then all that's left (other than bucket placement) is cutting and rigging techniques.. It's a new and different game. Though it might not look much different to the untrained, it has been for me. There are a lot of climbers that never got to make the switch because they never had access to a bucket.
I AM always looking for the fastest, safest easiest way to get a job done. SO I have put a lot of focus on cutting and rigging... It's keeps it interesting for me after all these years. I try to reduce the total number of cuts I make and save time on every cut I do make.. Seconds add up to minutes, minutes ad up to hours, hours ad up to days, days up to weeks... Over time it makes a huge difference.. And faster is often safer and offers options to situations that could otherwise be very dangerous.
The trees in my market are big enough to push the limits of a 75' bucket. I'll often have to rig big stuff in a way that wouldn't be needed by a climber. It's rare that I use a crane on a tree that I can get the bucket to. Lot of other guys don't think like that. They'll just bring in the crane anytime they get something that pushes the limits of the bucket. I know one of the guys that bid on this tree. He has a 75' bucket too, but was planning on a second day with the crane, after taking what brush he could with the bucket. I almost had this tree down in a day.
So it might be worth having a discussion on the difference between lazy and efficient... I could show plenty of the standard, by the book, boyscout approved stuff. I do it all day long.. after 30 years it's automatic. I don't bother posting it ... I'd rather show and discuss out of the box techniques. Which may seem threatening to the less skilled.. Until you have the basics mastered, going outside the lines cold be very dangerous in this business.
While flushcut may still think this is a lazy man's cut, I would venture a guess that he doesn't use a bucket much... One of the main differences between climbing and using a bucket is the bucket's lack of mobility, often forcing the op to cut and rig in a way that would not be required from rope and saddle. Working from the bucket is a little more of a head game due to those limitations..
I'll often switch up the rigging points with redirects and satellite rigging points, multiple times that a climber would have to work a lot harder to achieve. And creative rigging is often needed to keep the bucket and boom out of the rigging path when a climber could just shimmy over to the other side of the tree to make the cut.
Because climbing is such a physically demanding part of the job, there is a major focus on the climbing aspect of tree work, and rightly so. Lots of focus on climbing gear and technique. This focus seems to have overshadowed the cutting and rigging techniques among arborists... That's evident from the forums and youtube videos.. (Obviously where there are loggers involved the focus is going to be more on falling / cutting techniques)
When movement is so fast and easy with the bucket, the focus on climbing skills and gear goes to zero, and then all that's left (other than bucket placement) is cutting and rigging techniques.. It's a new and different game. Though it might not look much different to the untrained, it has been for me. There are a lot of climbers that never got to make the switch because they never had access to a bucket.
I AM always looking for the fastest, safest easiest way to get a job done. SO I have put a lot of focus on cutting and rigging... It's keeps it interesting for me after all these years. I try to reduce the total number of cuts I make and save time on every cut I do make.. Seconds add up to minutes, minutes ad up to hours, hours ad up to days, days up to weeks... Over time it makes a huge difference.. And faster is often safer and offers options to situations that could otherwise be very dangerous.
The trees in my market are big enough to push the limits of a 75' bucket. I'll often have to rig big stuff in a way that wouldn't be needed by a climber. It's rare that I use a crane on a tree that I can get the bucket to. Lot of other guys don't think like that. They'll just bring in the crane anytime they get something that pushes the limits of the bucket. I know one of the guys that bid on this tree. He has a 75' bucket too, but was planning on a second day with the crane, after taking what brush he could with the bucket. I almost had this tree down in a day.
So it might be worth having a discussion on the difference between lazy and efficient... I could show plenty of the standard, by the book, boyscout approved stuff. I do it all day long.. after 30 years it's automatic. I don't bother posting it ... I'd rather show and discuss out of the box techniques. Which may seem threatening to the less skilled.. Until you have the basics mastered, going outside the lines cold be very dangerous in this business.
Attachments
Last time I tried to go that way with you, you ended up showing a Swedish study that you thought proved your point.
Turned out that it didn't, but since you couldn't read Swedish ( Which I can) all you had to go on was the pretty pictures in it.
I gave up on the "intelligent discussion" approach after that.
Made for a good laugh, though.
murphy4trees
TreeHouser
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #168
Ya , what was that about...
Was that the one where you were trying to say that the outer fibers have more holding strength than the center fibers... or maybe that was woodworking boy... honestly I have a terrible memory for these things... in any case... you don't seem to have any intelligent criticisms of the cuts or techniques discussed here, so you just throw some mud at the bearer... Its an old political trick.... when the facts and logic don't support your case, throw a personal attack out there...So what else do you have????
Was that the one where you were trying to say that the outer fibers have more holding strength than the center fibers... or maybe that was woodworking boy... honestly I have a terrible memory for these things... in any case... you don't seem to have any intelligent criticisms of the cuts or techniques discussed here, so you just throw some mud at the bearer... Its an old political trick.... when the facts and logic don't support your case, throw a personal attack out there...So what else do you have????
MasterBlaster
Administrator Emeritus
murphy4trees
TreeHouser
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #170
C'mon Butch,
Got anything to ad here? You made the move from climber to bucket op... did you change your game?
Got anything to ad here? You made the move from climber to bucket op... did you change your game?
MasterBlaster
Administrator Emeritus
Heck yea - I quit treework completely.
No more underbeds for me.
No more underbeds for me.
murphy4trees
TreeHouser
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #172
when was your last rodeo?
MasterBlaster
Administrator Emeritus
A bit over three years now.
murphy4trees
TreeHouser
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #174
How's that feel???
theTreeSpyder
TreeHouser
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Wow, geez, rub it in why don't ya!
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