Hard leaning Alder felling

[SouthSoundTree-]

I don't always have a bathroom stain on my pants, but when I do, its at Walmart.

 

[murphy4trees]

I hope nobody takes anything I write personally... I AM just trying to have some fun... not directing anything at anybody...

That said I do think it would be better for the industry to talk about hinge width in terms of inches, completely independent of percentage of diameter...

 

[woodworkingboy]

Though talking in diameters might better reflect the superior intelligence of the industry as a whole, preferring to use geometry over basic math.

 

[murphy4trees]

actually around here most "dumb tree cutters" put three men on a pull line and just keep cutting til the tree starts to move... not much math involved... its a sad state of affairs

maybe we could go with centimeters and really confuse them

 

[woodworkingboy]

School leavers.

 

[stig]

Thanks Stig. I've never really done a true block face. I was just curious on how you handled them. I was guessing that you being a seasoned feller would knock them out.

Actually, that is due to the same talk I had with Jerry B.

He said something that I hadn't thought of before, since I always used to cut them.

If you knock them out, you know the fibers are unbroken in the front of your hinge, whereas if you cut them, some may be cut through, due to them not running straight vertically.

Eye opener!

Jerry is great for really thinking this stuff through.

I posted some pictures here of a tree with twisted grain and how it affected the hinge.

Half a year later I am driving along with Jer, and he says out of the blue: " I figured a solution to your problem, but anyone that sees the stump later will figure you for crazy".
He was right, of course.

 

[woodslinger]

I was wondering about the hinge thickness equation on a 36" dia. ash tree I cut recently. My gut instinct was to thin the hinge a bit more, but it was already at or under the 3 to 3.5" thickness that the 10% rule would dictate. I am quite interested in that conversation.

 

[murphy4trees]

I was wondering about the hinge thickness equation on a 36" dia. ash tree I cut recently. My gut instinct was to thin the hinge a bit more, but it was already at or under the 3 to 3.5" thickness that the 10% rule would dictate. I am quite interested in that conversation.

exactly!!!

Let's talk inches not percentage of diameter..
40" straight tree, 4" hinge is going to be a problem... why fight that much resistance when a 2" hinge will work just fine? !!!

You could say a 2" hinge is 5% of the diameter, making it withing the 5-10% range that Willie mentioned, but then which is is 5 or 10... That's a lot of variable on a 40" tree. If we just said 1-2" on small and medium trees and 2-3" on large trees (straight trees with good fibers in the holding wood) it would be simple and easy to measure, no doubt a benefit to all. then we could talk about adjusting the width according to variables in some fairly manageable way.

 

[SouthSoundTree-]

I can't figure out how a 3" hinge works trees unless you're relying on a machine to compensate for the wrong hinge.. A 3' and a 6" and 6" tree don't all use a similar hinge. A rotten tree and a solid green tree don't use the same amount of hinge. A cottonwood and an oak don't either.

I think it would be better for the industry to understand basic, tried and true methods. As well, removing the need to learn knots that boy and girl scouts learn, pretty easily, does speed up the job, but doesn't educate the industry. Its good for a gear manufacturer.

An arbitrary 3" hinge is a GREAT way to split an alder. I wouldn't put a 3" hinge on even a 2' alder, much less 14-16" head leaners.

 

[biggun]

Just stick to a hinge width being a percentage of the diameter.
Then there is no need to translate from English to the version you speak over there.

 

[RopeArmour]

Depending on the tree, I cut in the root flare.
Sometimes all back cut, sometimes all notch.
Flare wood is more dependable than stem wood in terms of hinging imo

 

[stig]

Not if you cut your face too shallow, and have the fibers of the hinge running towards the front of the face.

Your idea goes against all felling lore, that says that one needs as vertical fibers as possible for max strength in the hinge.

We cut low in the woods here, partly because we are required to,and partly because on beech, you need to inorder to keep the log from splitting on the way to the veneer mill.

But on difficult trees, with valuable objects in the way, I go high, looking for vertical fibers.

 

[SouthSoundTree-]

That probably works better in some situations, but...

Have your traditional, tried and true hinges been untrue?

I've beat over so many rotten trees with a percentage hinge and wedges. Somehow it always seems to work.


Does root flare help fight highly barberchair prone trees splitting?

 

[SouthSoundTree-]

We got good at shoulder/ head high humboldts with big saws because there can be more solid wood up there when dealing with root disease, as par for course.

 

[murphy4trees]

Just stick to a hinge width being a percentage of the diameter.

We really need to understand the "why"... WHY is it 10%... once we do then we can adjust that for each scenario. If you just stick to the "rules" without understanding the why then you really are just a "dumb tree cutter". These rules make us dumb.... Maybe 10% is a place to start for instructions to a newbie, but where can we find more detailed instructions? There are so many variables and tricks that can be learned, but all the industry has is 10%... The same 10% we had back in the 60's... that'd be like using a dial up phone.. that's the level of education in this industry .... You want to learn how to cut a tree... here use this dial up phone!

Not if you cut your face too shallow, and have the fibers of the hinge running towards the front of the face.

Your idea goes against all felling lore, that says that one needs as vertical fibers as possible for max strength in the hinge.

We cut low in the woods here, partly because we are required to,and partly because on beech, you need to inorder to keep the log from splitting on the way to the veneer mill.

But on difficult trees, with valuable objects in the way, I go high, looking for vertical fibers.

I would completely agree with that... I don;t trust the squirrely fibers in the trunk flare. I want nice clean straight fibers if I have to trust a hinge.

We got good at shoulder/ head high humboldts with big saws because there can be more solid wood up there when dealing with root disease, as par for course.

now we're getting some where

Does root flare help fight highly barberchair prone trees splitting?

Most definitely, the root flare will be far less likely to BBC, and the BBC split will generally stop at the first crotch...

 

[stig]

Which, in you typical forest tree, will be somewhere between 100 and 200 feet up.

Big help in that.

 

[murphy4trees]

well I never have cut a tree in a typical forest... When I try to BBC them on purpose for video, that first crotch is a hindrance. Much less drama when the tree only splits 5-7' before rolling off to the side

 

[SouthSoundTree-]

It bet it would be informative, Daniel, if you can get the chance some way or another.

 

[murphy4trees]

I've beat over so many rotten trees with a percentage hinge and wedges. Somehow it always seems to work.

That's one of the variables then... I;ve pulled trees over with ropes for 30 years. That's a much different game than using wedges.. Which I might have done 20-30 times in my life. Give me a nice fat rope set high in a nasty side leaning silver maple (poor hinging wood) and I'll show you a 6" hinge that holds perfectly with a skid loader doing the pulling. You could beat on that hinge for a month with wedges and get nothing but blisters and mushroomed steel.

It bet it would be informative, Daniel, if you can get the chance some way or another.

I did BBC a couple ash trees on purpose last year, but haven't even captured the footage yet. I did make this video about the BBC that nick bonner posted

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/1FjU2PaQJIY" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[sotc]

I hope nobody takes anything I write personally... I AM just trying to have some fun... not directing anything at anybody...

That said I do think it would be better for the industry to talk about hinge width in terms of inches, completely independent of percentage of diameter...

Not many thin skinned folks here.
Width or thickness?....
What would you say is THE ideal thickness of a hinge? How does it not relate to a percentage of diameter?

I was wondering about the hinge thickness equation on a 36" dia. ash tree I cut recently. My gut instinct was to thin the hinge a bit more, but it was already at or under the 3 to 3.5" thickness that the 10% rule would dictate. I am quite interested in that conversation.

Your 3.5" is the heavy side. I typically know I can safely saw up a tree to the 10% range before much is going to happen. Pretty straight, balanced trees. I also find the 5 percent range to be the end thickness when the tree commits. If it hasn't committed by 5 percent I rarely cut more till I know I've got it in lead.

 

[murphy4trees]

Your 3.5" is the heavy side. I typically know I can safely saw up a tree to the 10% range before much is going to happen. Pretty straight, balanced trees. I also find the 5 percent range to be the end thickness when the tree commits. If it hasn't committed by 5 percent I rarely cut more till I know I've got it in lead.

That is a lot more useful info than just 10%... Apparently we have to educate ourselves about such matters to get it right!!!

 

[SouthSoundTree-]

Working with the lean is going to change that compared to having to work against the lean, or 90 degrees to the lean.

Seems like apprenticeship would do well for the industry.

 

[murphy4trees]

Seems like apprenticeship would do well for the industry.

Men are dying weekly from poor cutting skills... not enough apprenticeships to go around ??

 

[SouthSoundTree-]

I'd love to have someone serious and motivated as an apprentice, who I could hope to keep, or send out of town.


Are there apprenticeships? Its not like being an apprentice electrician.

 

[Burnham]

There are no formal situations this side of the pond.