Felling cuts - level or diagonal cut first?

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Bounce said:
Ok good. This guy just made it sound like there was some tremendous safety advantage to making the diagonal cut first.
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Yeah, he sounds way too anal about it. Because safety isn't the issue. If someone can make the notch well and get the tree to fall exactly where a faller aimed, it doesn't matter the order in the long run.
 
And FTR, it is not difficult at all to use the gun sight with the angled cut first. People do it all the time.
 

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sotc said:
you can look through the level cut also;)
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I agree. However, with a angled cut first, you don't have to crouch down to watch the bar;).

I'm not a stickler about the subject, but I do like learning from people who have mastered something. And I'll do what they say is best.

And it goes down the point I stated before. Basically, "what ever floats your boat." :drink:
 
yup, i was shocked to see how many do the angle first but there must be something to it that i dont understand. i try and listen to every one and use what works for me
 
Jamin Mayer said:
Angled cut first then horizontal cut with conventional.

And my reason is this: I took a chainsaw safety and felling class taught by Ron Hartill and sponsored by Husqvarna. What I learned from Ron was the idea of placing the top angled cut in first is beneficial because when you are cutting your horizontal cut to complete the notch you can see through the angled cut to watch for the tip of your bar. This way you cannot bypass your cut in your notch and you end up with a perfect notch.
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I'll say it again...just because you can see that point and stop before you bypass the first kerf does not mean you have formed a perfect face. For that to happen the first cut must be stopped perfectly level and the second cut must be started perfectly level...or both have to be on a matched angle relative to the horizon, should that be your goal.

In either case, perfectly matching that angle must be achieved as well as stopping before bypass.

At least that's the way it seems to me.
 
To me too. I see your point Jammin about eyeing the horizontal cut to not bypass by doing the angle cut first. But I see a greater advantage in being able to easily alter your direction of the hinge(fall) right down to the last little bit of cutting with the horizontal cut first while still easily keeping everything level. My head is starting to hurt a little over all of this.:|:
 
I find myself on bigger trees, that are alot more than the bars length in diameter, getting my cuts close, then cutting the face in half and busting it out with an axe. then clean up from there. Biggest bar I got is a 3 footer and I will use a 28" as much as possible,
 
Whatever method is used some faces are going to get wonky...... and they can be dressed/straightened up. some folks are going to rave about efficiency and professionalism if you "waste" time filleting off a slice on on corner of a face to fix it...... whatever. If there is a fat 45 degree window for the lay of a balanced tree then slap dash and go. When it really matters I'll spend a few extra minutes dressing and cleaning and checking the gun so that everything is perfect.
"Perfect faces make for perfect falls"
 
Out in the woods things can get pretty lose and wild. When you start the morning off getting a tree hung up it pretty much sets tone for the rest of the day.

"Dang, I knew I should have cleaned out that undercut"
 
You 'angled cut first' folks are selling whacky tabacky! :P

I always make the horizontal first as that's how I first learned, and just feels right. Guess that's like most things in tree work, but there's always room for learning. 8)

Not sure if other people here do the same, but I've been in the habit of setting my horizontal cut first, then setting the dawgs in one corner of the top angle cut and working that cut all the way over, if that makes any sense. But I will say that I have a noticeable tendency to make my faces too deep (exceeding the standard 1/3 many times). :|:

jp:D
 
I always do the horizontal cut first unless messing around, my brain goes tilt when doing it in reverse. After reading this thread, I tried gunning the angled cut as well, and it seemed to help give precision. Thanks for the tip!

Some talk about using a Dutchman....I think I get more tendency for the tree to swing by leaving more holding wood on one side. I guess it's basically the same principle as a Dutchman. Probably you could do both to increase the effect. Jerry might have mentioned that in his book, can't remember and mine's currently out on loan. The pages are just about to start falling out.
 
sotc said:
yup, i was shocked to see how many do the angle first but there must be something to it that i dont understand. i try and listen to every one and use what works for me
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Simply put, either you can cut accurately or you can't. :)

I have cut the bottom first, and the top first, and really... I can pound stakes in the ground all day either way. :P

I prefer doing the top (angled cut) first because it's faster to get that precision gun than to make the horizontal, creep it in some more, check, creep it in some more, etc. (It may seem fine for one or two trees, but after 60 or 70 it really eats up alot of your day!)

Doing the top first, just aim carefully and cut, then blow out the notch floor. (I've never really noticed any trouble from the wedge of wood on the bar.)

And I'm not just talking about trees in the middle of the woods with no targets, either. ;)
 
NeTree said:
I Doing the top first, just aim carefully and cut, then blow out the notch floor. (I've never really noticed any trouble from the wedge of wood on the bar.)
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Most of the time you probabely won't experiance a problem .Then all of the sudden that golden BB that damned near removed my buddies fingers last week when he dropped 200 pounds of oak on his bar .:O
 
I've always started with the horizontal cut first. I set the dogs about where I want the cut to finish and sweep the bar around until the site lines up with the lay. I used to then try to judge the diagonal from the top of the cut and hope if would meet up with the horizontal cut. I would often have some cleanup to do.:roll: At first, I didn't understand the diagram in Jerry's book about the roll axis and tilt axis and all of that, until I saw it being done in "Old Growth". Then it clicked. The first time I tried it, it was one of those "Holy crap, it works!" moments.:lol: Now, after I make the horizontal cut, I swing the saw out without moving the dogs, point it towards the lay, and tilt it up for the diagonal and sweep it around again.

I have seen guys hold the saw level, at the top of the diagonal, gun the saw to the lay, and then carefully tilt the saw for the diagonal. It seemed to work ok, but there was still some trimming going on to make it perfect. These were usually trees that had a tight lay.


Dave
 
NeTree said:
Simply put, either you can cut accurately or you can't. :)

I have cut the bottom first, and the top first, and really... I can pound stakes in the ground all day either way. :P

I prefer doing the top (angled cut) first because it's faster to get that precision gun than to make the horizontal, creep it in some more, check, creep it in some more, etc. (It may seem fine for one or two trees, but after 60 or 70 it really eats up alot of your day!)

Doing the top first, just aim carefully and cut, then blow out the notch floor. (I've never really noticed any trouble from the wedge of wood on the bar.)

And I'm not just talking about trees in the middle of the woods with no targets, either. ;)
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never seen a faller out here cut the angle first, id think if it were that much time savings at least a few would:roll:
 
Stumper said:
Crazy? Good heavens man, you are a master of understatement! Ed is a Welshman!
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"Wales, the country, not the animal!!!":P
Ed should get it:

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I think we could all just go round with what first and last.. what feels right or not... how we were taught... Personally... I prefer to try everything and perfect it. I have the perfect (not that everyone does) classroom.. I get to do trees out in the middle of nowhere and not under anyones scrutiny... I get to practice different styles and cuts on the customers dime with no risk but to myself.. So yeah.. I practice even a dutchman and see what my roll and angle parameters and limits are.. TG.... I seen some guys up here make them dance right down into what burn pile I pick.. I want to be that good and proficient at each cut...
But thats just me....
In regular falls ... you bet I go with how I was taught and get it right with the scrutiny of the customer. Or if I am teaching my crew....
Like I said .. I am lucky I have the luxury of experimenting in open places, and having guys like you all in this forum laying it out there in words and diagram to add to my knowlege..
Thanks BTW
Good to see you in here Burnam BTW....
 
Burnham said:
I don't think I can imagine myself accurately gunning the lay from the very beginning of the angled cut and not having an easy way to re-aim...swinging in on the horizontal allows fine-tuning the gun from beginning to end, and I often do some minor tweaks as I finish at the hinge, either on the off-side or near-side.
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You have marks for aming on top of the saw, but also on starter.
No matter if you make top or bottom it is not the saw doing the aming.
:D8):P:lol:

The only reason I can see to prefer the top cut first is that you easyer feel when you are thru and this makes it harder to cut in to the hinge.
Since the fell cut is a bit higher than bottom cut it is not really all that important unless you are in a tight spot...

When I do fell cut I try to bore cut as often as possible and if it is not leaning against felling direction, I try to use trigger felling as it gives more control.

I never make big faces, I rater put a wedge or two in or the "Step-on-Iron" if it is smaller.

Here we make very open faces and try to keep the hinge intact all the way to prevent fibre pull and direction of fall.

Stump jumpers is a big no-no here...
 
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