Don't have to be tied in??

[bstewert]

Perhaps this has been covered here on the forum, but I'm wondering if this is still current. Check out #4.


437-007-1530 Three Point Climbing System.
(1) Use a three-point climbing system (three-points of contact) when tree climbing.
NOTE: A three-point system is not required when using an approved rappel or ascender system.
(2) While tree climbing, three-points of contact must be firmly in place on a secure surface
before moving to another point.
NOTE 1: Each hand and foot (or climbing spur) is considered a potential point of contact.
NOTE 2: Other parts of the body, such as a hooked knee or armpit, may be considered contact
points if the body part is physically capable of supporting the full body weight.
NOTE 3: A lanyard around the tree bole or appropriate limb that is secured to the safety harness
or climbing belt on both ends counts as two points of contact.
(3) Do not use unsound branches or stubs for support.
(4) Climbing without being secured to the tree is not allowed except in conifers when, in the
judgment of the qualified climber, the density of branches growing from the stem would
require so many limb-overs, attaching and reattaching the lanyard, as to become a greater
hazard than simply climbing that section of the tree.
(5) Climbing in conifers without being secured is not allowed above the 4-inch bole diameter.
Stat. Auth.: ORS 654.025(2) and 656.726(4).
Stats. Implemented: ORS 654.001 through 654.295.
Hist: OR-OSHA Admin. Order 3-2008, f. 3/7/08, ef. 7/1/08.


Full document:
http://www.orosha.org/pdf/rules/division_7/div_7.pdf

 

[MasterBlaster]

Sure, three point climbing. I've done it many times in the past, but I've stopped in my old age.

 

[Tucker943]

Like Butch said....
I've done plenty of it especially in conifers but I pretty much don't. Its not worth it. I may get to the top slower by staying attached but I make up the time lost once I fire up the saw. There's no way to justify falling out of the tree. Not that I know of. The mention of climbing conifers with no lanyard because hooking it and unhooking it would be more dangerous is crap. Alternate two lanyards or use your skinning line to alternate with your lanyard. With the split tail set up it isn't slow at all.

I don't go on what some osha book tells me to do in a tree. This ain't a factory or auto repair garage. I go on what my heart, mind, and knowledge tell me to do. Its just too dangerous and too loaded with variables to go about it based on what a book says. If every tree was the same, then all the rules could be tailored to fit that.

 

[bstewert]

I always staying tied in somewhere, so good habits remain second nature. Plus, just in case something flukey happens. I don't see how unhooking would possibly be more dangerous, either.

 

[gf beranek]

There is a lot of "DUH" with that osha description. duh.

 

[stig]

I did it a lot back in the 70es early eighties.
Stopped when 2 of my 3 points broke simultaneously and dumped me, with a broken back as result.
Been tied in ever since even in the smallest trees. Once burned, twice shy, I guess.

 

[Burnham]

I wrote that, acting as a stakeholder/consultant to Oregon OSHA ...pretty much echos USFS climbing program standards.

It means what it says, you don't have to be tied in if the tree structure supports that choice. It's safe, Stig's unhappy accident notwithstanding...the Forest Service has been doing so for many decades, and have the next best thing to zero accidents to show for it, which is why we retain the practice. It saves a huge amount of energy in climbing young to mid-aged conifers. The key is solid training to proper three point climbing technique, and a program of recertification training to constantly reinforce when and when not to use free climbing.

Hooking/unhooking in and of itself isn't a hazard, but fatigue is...

It's an option, not a requirement. If a climber doesn't feel comfortable with it, then they shouldn't do it. And it's not an all or nothing proposition. I frequently would alt lanyard most of a tree, but free climb at certain points when the structure was ideal for it.

 

[bstewert]

Hooking/unhooking in and of itself isn't a hazard, but fatigue is...

Interesting, Burnham. I think one could add "frustration" as a hazard. Sometimes the branches are so thick, it's all you can do to crawl thru, let alone tying off two lanyards. Here I'm trying to downclimb with a cat in the bag.

 

[Tucker943]

What is downclimbing? Don't you just come down on a line?

 

[bstewert]

Sometimes, when the branches are so thick, I climb up with two short lanyards. Easier for me than trying to pull up a single long line thru all the branches. Then I have to climb down using the same two lanyards. I've mostly given that up, and now bring up an 80' pre-set Ddrt line in a kids backpack. I still have to climb down, but at least I can go up to 40' before recrotching.

 

[Tucker943]

Now I see.

 

[wiley_p]

I don't agree at all about it being safe Burnahm. "Safe" would be tied in, If you slip using the old 3-point method your chances of falling are incredibly high. Using a climbline in conjunction with lanyard and hooks, setting a canopy entry system from the ground, etc are much safer options.
if maintaining a static tie in is overworking a climber there are other issues at play.

 

[Porkbrick]

i think safe is as safe does. what if your high tie point breaks, or the limb you are lanyarded into or the whole tree uproots and falls over? we rely on or experience, training, and common sense to keep us safe in the trees, and that should apply to any technique we choose to employ. from the age of 5 till i was 15 or so i climbed hundreds of trees, some in excess of 150', without ever using rope or saddle. in all that time i never fell (i did get electrocuted tho). every hand and foothold is treated like a new tie-in, it must be judged sound and your position firm before committing. just like testing your lanyard point before releasing your climbline. that said, i dont free climb at work. for one, as a production oriented climber, every climb involves pressure to geterdone fast and free climbing is not something to be done in a rush or when tired. for two, i feel as a forman i am setting an example for the other climbers and we dont have a good system in place to train or certify them for the technique. should that clause be in the regs? i dont know. anywho, my 2 cents.

 

[MasterBlaster]

I climbed two TV transmission towers to replace light bulbs, 300' and 425'. They were just big enough for me to climb inside, but it was tight and I was banging my elbows. I hollered down to the guy "Is this how the other guys do it?" He said no, they climb on the outside. I thought "Sweet!" and crawled out and continued my ascent. It was MUCH easier, but at no time was I tied in. It was three point all the way, baybee.

It was like a ladder that never ended, with sections painted red and white. The 300 footer was flat topped with faulty bulb on top. The view was incredible, but in the 424, it was unbelievable. It was amazing how I could yell down and talk to the guy... I guess that's how it is out in the middle of a big ass field, no chainsaws or chippers...

I got 100 bucks for each tower, this was around 78', 79'. The regular guy wasn't able to be there as quick as they wanted him to be, and I just kinda fell into this gig. fdcvvvvvb n < my cat typed that. About a month ago, I was line clearing and working out taps. This particular tap led to the building supporting a 1500' tower, pretty impressive. You rode an elevator the first thousand feet or so.

As I was descending from the tree, right next to the building, some kinda Honcho drove up. I was rolling up my rope and he approached me, amazed at what I'd just (LOL) done. I asked him about the tower and he regaled me with all sorts of cool info. As he was leaving, I told him to call me the next time he needed any tower work done, and I gave him my number.

That's how I got the gig. They never called back, sads.

I showed Jerry B the towers as we we riding a job, IIRC.

 

[bstewert]

That's a great story!

 

[MasterBlaster]

It was even better living it. I had to collect my check at the local NBC station. It was weird going in and seeing them putting out the noon day news.

 

[Burnham]

I don't agree at all about it being safe Burnahm. "Safe" would be tied in, If you slip using the old 3-point method your chances of falling are incredibly high. Using a climbline in conjunction with lanyard and hooks, setting a canopy entry system from the ground, etc are much safer options.
if maintaining a static tie in is overworking a climber there are other issues at play.

Ok, maybe safe isn't the correct word, Dave. How about "acceptable level of risk"?

I base that evaluation on thousands of climbs, tens of thousands of hours aloft, by UFSF trained and certified climbers, going back more than three decades. If one follows those protocols, one can free climb with minimal risk, and as to your last statement...baloney . We all begin to get tired at some point, and choosing safe (in my lexicon ) methods that put that point off is climbing smart.

 

[gf beranek]

Working by the written rule, and then being safe and practical, are two completely different things.

It's a can of worms. pretty fine line sometimes. Wisdom prevails is all things.

 

[MasterBlaster]

And if it don't feel right, don't do it!

 

[gf beranek]

Words of wisdom!

 

[sotc]

Alternating tie in's is the one thing I think the klimbair is good for.

 

[Burnham]

Maybe for some, but any double headed lanyard suffers the same problems in deployment for me that I've harped on ad nauseum before.

 

[Marc-Antoine]

I never free climb, I don't want to take the risk.
Well, yes, actually sometime in the big hedges for a major pruning.
In trees, I use 2 climbing lines, 30 and 100 feet, and each one plays alternatively the role of a lanyard. I always put a tie-in point above me or at least at the same level at the top. For that, I carry a compact telescopic pole with a twin hook, so, I can reach 11 or 12 feet over my head and find a suitable crotch, even in the hairy trees. I clip / unclip only every 10 feet or so, much less boring than every couple of feet.

 

[CurSedVoyce]

I really feel safer just going up my climb line as the second flipline/lanyard. Gone are the days for me to just be up a stem with two or one flip line and free climbing. I will demo free climbing to my kids on a special tree out back. That tree has great scaffolding and you can start a limb walk at about 12-15 foot up and walk out 20 plus feet and of the tip onto the ground. It's a fun limbwalk no matter your age. I prefer to shoot a line in prior to going up any stem. I have Rob tend the line and just bee bop up the tree. I have restricted my free climbing to about 20 feet up.... IF I feel safe and good with it. 3 points and all that ... It really only takes one slip .... Shit..hit the ground the wrong way from a low point even can be devistating or lethal. Having kids and Katy, I am more aware of Mr. Death whispering over my left shoulder.

 

[Burnham]

That's why I favor long lanyards, M-A...12 feet is a shorty for me, I like 16' to 20' better. Same idea, you just take it a bit further than I do .

Listen, y'all. I know my rep is strong towards the "safest climbing is proper" end of the range. I'd like to think that would carry some weight here, when you consider my position on free climbing.

There is no such thing as riskless treework. I am firm in my belief that with good training and a disciplined approach, a climber can save energy and be both efficient and "safe" using solid three point climbing technique in trees that offer the structure that allows free climbing. I think this is not unique to conifers, but it surely is more likely there.

NiceGuyDave says it's not, that there are safer ways to do it. I have to agree, but the same is true of driving on the freeway. I'm theoretically "safer" in my big Tundra than he is in his tiny Yaris...but we both are driving vehicles with good crash ratings...we are both operating rides with acceptable levels of risk. He need not drive a large vehicle with it's attendant large operating costs...he's more than "safe enough".

Free climbing done right is no different, in my view.