comedy falling

[BlackSmith]

Something about those that do and those that teach...

 

[CurSedVoyce]

I remember ending up teaching our college computer programming class from time to time, because our teacher would often do a couple different things that threw many of the other students off. One was using too much code for a simple task. The other was making a mistake in code that would create a loop or dead end to a process.

 

[murphy4trees]

Then there is the statement about this tree BBCing, which given the size, species, and lack of weight in the top, there is zero chance. So we can give them the benefit of the doubt and say they are using this as an example of a way to avoid BBC, even if not needed on this particular tree. Then there is the lack of traffic control as a car pulls up and just stops in the road at 3:30: no traffic control, with the tree falling right towards the street. Then there is Ken's statement about perfect shot right between the light and the fence, when the only reason that happened is because that is where the tree was leaning. There was zero control from the hinge. There were no hinge fibers sticking up from the stump. Look at the stump and the log. The hinge is like an 1/4 to 1/2 inch wide and a few inches long on each side of dead wood . Do they think that hinge controlled the tree all the way to the ground as they stated it would? Do they have a clue? That hinge didn't control the fall at all. ZERO CONTROL and none was needed as it was a front leaner. SO there you go @stig, another example of a tree that doesn't need control from the cut. But with all this nonsense in under 5 minutes, this occurs as more of a comedy than any competent advice. And these guys are supposed to be the top trainers in the world? That just goes to show you the state of education in this industry.

 

[murphy4trees]

This video of the stump never lies, tells a lot more of the story than "hey, there was nail in the tree, so now I have to sharpen my saw"
You have to wonder why there is such an abundance of information that could have been shared and so little (almost NONE) that actually was.

 

[Marc-Antoine]

Maybe because Keep It Short and Simple for these vids, just to give an idea and keep the complete info for the actual education in a more private way (and remunerated I guess).

 

[stig]

Or maybe because mouthing off for almost 13 minutes and repeating yourself constantly tends to make people lose interest.

 

[Burnham]

Ya think???

 

[CurSedVoyce]

Whats that saying? Take the cotton out ya ears and stick it in your mouth..
Something like that

 

[BlackSmith]

How much accuracy and precision is needed when the tree is being pulled to the lay with equipment..?

 

[Ryan]

Well, I had a guy pull over 15' of trunk with a truck even before I put my back cut in. I guess my face cut still aimed it....

 

[murphy4trees]

Or maybe because mouthing off for almost 13 minutes and repeating yourself constantly tends to make people lose interest.

You've been cutting trees for more years than most tree guys have been alive. I don't put this video up for people like you stig. I out them up for people that go to YouTube to learn. As far as repeating goes. This production is not scripted. I wing it and edit, but would rather err on the side of redundancy than leaving out something important. Your criticisms are very self-centric. Can you look at the world from others' perspectives?

 

[murphy4trees]

How much accuracy and precision is needed when the tree is being pulled to the lay with equipment..?

It all depends. Pulling power definitely expands your options, but like any tool or trick can be misused, and in any tight DZ is no replacement for good cutting technique. The question is worthy of a discussion, but never got too much play here.

I've never seen any of your read anything from you that shows your level of experience. Nothing comes to mind. How much experience do you have and what kind of work do you do?

 

[BlackSmith]

“How much experience do you have and what kind of work do you do?”

Been cutting trees for 40+ years, I’d venture to say 1 year experience 40 times and that’s being generous... heh. Steamfitter/Welder, Crane Operator/ Rigger, Fabricator, whatever it takes to pay the bills. Was doing mobile connections till this woohoo flu shut us down. I like puppy dogs and long walks on the beach also...

 

[Tree09]

I personally never understood the whole teaching people on YouTube thing. When you go to school, an apprenticeship, even a new job they train you, but you have actually expended effort to be there and learn. A click doesn't satisfy that. Even reading a book or learning from a video series you have to spend money or go to a library, once again expending effort. Hell even a forum requires you to join and then ask questions. YouTube seems like someone who doesn't really care enough in the first place clicks on it and watches it, then assumes they know and understand it.

Rather than investing the time and effort to actually learn something, they go watch a video and then don't understand any of the why behind it. I get why you would make videos to teach, but i don't understand the desire to share it with everyone rather than people who could actually benefit from it and can understand it. Kinda like the whole "know just enough to kill yourself" thing, and tree work is dangerous enough. Teaching random people on the internet seems like a bad idea in the long term, because once they watch a handful of videos, they assume they understand the why behind it and then go hurt themselves because they truly don't know shit.

 

[lxskllr]

I don't care for video as an instructional medium. For by myself, I much prefer text and still pics. If I refer to video, it's usually to get a broad overview, and an idea of the physics involved. For treework in particular, I like watching how people handle themselves in-tree. Unfortunately, that isn't usually the focus of attention in the video.

Ya never know when you'll get a surprise though. I was watching August's Beranek interview that randomly popped up as a recommendation after one of August's other videos, and after that, his bowline video was recommended. They were all good, but I especially liked the bowline video. He ties that up slick as hell. I need to practice that a bit. It was a revelation seeing him tie it.

 

[Husky D]

As a concept I didn’t mind some of the explanation however granted it only showed the views from the one side so allowed you to assume no side lean . You go to great lengths at times Daniel to say none of this is required from this video when, from what I’ve seen of some of your videos neither is it required there but fine for you to preach/teach but not others? In one comment your saying no hinge is required on this tree and next state that they only left 1/4 - 1/2” of hinge? From the video prior to felling I would have said there was more than that there but that’s my opinion, you also mention that there were no fibres sticking up from the stump which as I thought they said it was Oak and generally they are shorter grained plus looked dead as it fell was hardly surprising. Just to add, you mention not requiring much hinge on a heavy leaner as it will make the lay on its own, If boring out as per the video and holding on a strap on the back and thinning your hinge too much will guarantee you getting the saw stuck with heavy downward pressure being exerted.
As for the pie cut face, why not after completing your first angled top cut just line up your corner with the saw horizontal for your second and cut in until you “feel” it meet or see saw dust fly out the kerf, pivot the nose round keeping it in the bottom cut and top cut round to your far side. Very often you’ll actually see a sprayed saw dust line from your first angled cut to give you a very good guide to line up with then put the saw back in the top to complete. Yes you will need to tidy up occasionally but you’ll save moving side to side a minimum of times.

 

[murphy4trees]

You go to great lengths at times Daniel to say none of this is required from this video when, from what I’ve seen of some of your videos neither is it required there but fine for you to preach/teach but not others? In one comment your saying no hinge is required on this tree and next state that they only left 1/4 - 1/2” of hinge? From the video prior to felling I would have said there was more than that there but that’s my opinion, you also mention that there were no fibres sticking up from the stump which as I thought they said it was Oak and generally they are shorter grained plus looked dead as it fell was hardly surprising.

Not surprising at all given the way he cut the hinge. Perhaps they could have picked a better tree. Theirs was a professional video production from the best-known training organization in the world. You might expect them to have better planning and execution, and offer a little more insight from the stump than "BYW I hit a nail".

And don't disparage dead opak's holding ability which is plenty as long as there is enough hinge and that requires enough pulling force. Arbormaster teaches against the use of the tapered hinge and, to my knowledge, against the use of pulling with equipment. Both of which are the only way to make the below falls work.

Here's a couple of long-dead oaks that needed a lot of hold from the hinge and got it, as demonstrated by the amount and length of the long fibers in the hinge"

This is one of the nastiest trees I ever cut. Saved the customer $5600 by using falling skills instead of a crane. there is zero chance that Rip would have the skill, ability, and confidence to fall this tree. That said I wonder if @Burnham or @stig would have walked away from this one:



This oak hinge is 8" wide on the wide side. That's what it took to get this tree on the ground without putting a climber and ground crew at risk. 8" tapered oak hinge will never be recommended by the ISA. In video, one of the best ways to figure out how much holding strength the hinge has is to listen to the fall in slow motion. All the squeaking and popping and fiber pulling will tell you how long the hinge held. When you listen to enough hinges, you'll get a feel for how long they need to hold for a tree to make the lay. In the arborpod video, there is zero sound of the hinge pulling apart. In these two videos, there is plenty.



ps... the first video should answer your question blacksmith:

How much accuracy and precision is needed when the tree is being pulled to the lay with equipment..?

and to HuskyD's comment:
"From the video prior to felling I would have said there was more than that there but that’s my opinion"
I noticed that as well. It's clear from a look at the log that the hinge was almost non-exisdtent, which means they thinned out the hinge off camera.

 

[murphy4trees]

Why don't you work on getting the simple basics right before you start crapping on other people's videos.
Wan't me to start posting pictures of your stumps like Rico does at Treebuzz?

I'll do it for you and would be happy to post pics of my stumps vs Rip's stump below. All three are dead oak.

This is the Rips stump where the hinge is supposed to control the tree all the way to the ground .... HARDLY RIP!!!





Here are a couple of mine:

 

[murphy4trees]

These hinges had some holding ability. Rips had near zero:

 

[murphy4trees]

 

[murphy4trees]

If boring out as per the video and holding on a strap on the back and thinning your hinge too much will guarantee you getting the saw stuck with heavy downward pressure being exerted.


As for the pie cut face, why not after completing your first angled top cut just line up your corner with the saw horizontal for your second and cut in until you “feel” it meet or see saw dust fly out the kerf, pivot the nose round keeping it in the bottom cut and top cut round to your far side. Very often you’ll actually see a sprayed saw dust line from your first angled cut to give you a very good guide to line up with then put the saw back in the top to complete. Yes you will need to tidy up occasionally but you’ll save moving side to side a minimum of times.

The first concern about bar pinch is not much of an issue.. Maybe on a big hollow tree, but otherwise no.

In the second part I think you are asking why use the intentionally high bottom cut on the face per the plate cut? Lots of reasons.. we've debated it here in much detail.

 

[Bermy]

Your stumps would have failed my recent fallers course in Tasmania...back cut consistently too low...mind you, eucalypts aren't t oak or pine that's for sure.

 

[murphy4trees]

Your stumps would have failed my recent fallers course in Tasmania...back cut consistently too low...mind you, eucalypts aren't t oak or pine that's for sure.

Those back cuts were set at the specific heights for a reason.

There is a problem with one size fits all solutions. I believe I was the first one on this forum to point out that stump shot ( at least 2" of stump shot) is not needed in most suburban falling scenarios. Anytime you put that back cut higher than the face, you increase the chance for any imperfection in the grain within the differential to compromise the hinge. And the additional force it takes to break the 2" of wood fibers can be a problem if that requires thinning the hinge in order to allow the same amount of force to trip the fall.

I doubt your course instructors in Tasmania could clearly explain why falling cuts should have 2" of stump shot (or however much they recommend) and when it may be appropriate to reduce or increase that distance. Instead, they are likely serving up a one size fits all recipe, without understanding how all the variables of creating a hinge come together. Which means they wouldn't pass my course.

 

[BlackSmith]

“the first video should answer your question blacksmith”

As flattered as I am (cough) don’t delude yourself by thinking I’m in your little circle of students...

 

[Bermy]

Seriously Murphy?
Variable back cut height was an intrinsic part of the discussion and application to each tree, what, you think if anyone is not you they don't know anything worth knowing about the physics of felling?