alternatives in land use

[Pelorus]

The sap that may be running now in Detroit was shivering last February, wasn't it?
Coldest February I can ever recall. Temperature never went above freezing the entire month.
Food for thought:
http://notrickszone.com/2015/08/22/...-much-snow-at-this-time/#sthash.NP6B1iZH.dpbs

 

[FireFighterZero]

I fear you are right. I'm not supposed to be seeing spiders and flying insects out and about in jan. and feb.

But the future is unknowable. Lets hope in a few years Jim can say, 'see?? I told you so. Things are fine.'

Ha! I knew you would say that!.

I am not a climate denier. But crap, even the CO2 priests are making money off this thing. None of these jackwagons are doing anything to consume less crap from China.

I am with DMC on this one.

 

[cory]

Interesting articles.

 

[cory]

The last 2 winters here in New England were brutal, now this one is quite mild so far. Most climate change folks say the extremes are clear evidence of global warming.

 

[cory]

It is all about the money and always has been. It is a smoke and mirrors game. They are redirecting the focus away from the real problem. Which is the poisoning of our planet. But they can't call it "poisoning the planet" because the people pulling the strings don't want you to be concerned about that. So they give you an enemy, man made CO2.

You write interesting stuff but a lot of it seems cryptic to me. Who is, "they?" Who are the "people pulling the strings?" Is man made CO2 not a real enemy?

 

[FireFighterZero]

But there has always been extreme weather. In my short tenure I have seen nice weather and extreme weather, stories from Dad and Grandpa would indicate the same.

We were supposed to have caused the coming Ice Age when dad was younger. I dont believe they extorted as much money outta people on that one though.

My family tries to throw less crap away, reuse stuff, use less energy, you know waste less. This new farm plan I have has got to be good for the environment.


If climate change REALLY mattered, they would stop what is going on. Places like China, India, Brazil would be forced to change. Instead they pay fees to make everyone feel safer. Its a mafia boss's wet dream.

The Paris talks were not about saving the planet, they were about greed.

If it REALLY mattered we would consume less, recycle more and make tough changes. But we dont. Still feeling high off the fumes of cheap shit we can buy.

Its a guilt/global shakedown.

 

[FireFighterZero]

I might be way off, too cynical for a proper discussion. I will shut up now!

Please continue!

 

[Pelorus]

The Paris talks were a feel goody get together. Nothing more.
The amount of CO2 in your blood is what controls your breathing. Not oxygen.
It is made out to be some kinda poison by politicians and folks like Gore who make a living by scaring the gullible.

 

[cory]

My family tries to throw less crap away, reuse stuff, use less energy, you know waste less. This new farm plan I have has got to be good for the environment.

Same here re wasting less. Good on you and your farm plan

If climate change REALLY mattered, they would stop what is going on. Places like China, India, Brazil would be forced to change.

Who is "they?" Who would force China etc to change?

 

[Pelorus]

The "they" is gonna have to be them. The Chinese themselves.
Probably take a prolonged mass die off in a smog filled city to achieve that.
Extrinsic pressure from "the world community"? Not bloody likely!
The UN is about as relevant as a bicycle is to a fish (to paraphrase a feminist talking about men)
Intrinsic pressure from activists a la Tiananmen Square debacle? Not likely either!

 

[FireFighterZero]

Thats probably right.

We might scream and yell about the pollution China produces, but we still demand cheap Chinese goods. At this point all the talk about a high standard of living is dependent on .50 cent wages, high pollution, and human rights violations. So we benefit while others suffer.

We have been told that if we dont spend our entire paychecks every month we are not good for the economy. We cash our refunds at WalMart.

I agree about the UN thing, they with the WTO are about as good for the planet as a mafia boss is good for Main Street.

I guess Cory the "they" would have to be us. Our govts have no will to make changes, the UN, WTO are a joke.

The people might have to decide that the current "standard" of living is not sustainable and make hard choices. Consume, consume, consume......

But shit, I am arguing about comsuming less while typing on a Chinese lap top.

 

[cory]

We have been told that if we dont spend our entire paychecks every month we are not good for the economy.

:

I have never heard this. So am I out of the loop or is your assertion not accurate?

 

[FireFighterZero]

I read that once during a brief period of reading Keynes. VERY brief!

As far as I can figure, folks like Keynes thought that in tough times saving was worse than spending.

I must be somewhat correct though. How else would you explain Memorial Day sales? Shopping on Sundays?

 

[DMc]

....Who is, "they?" Who are the "people pulling the strings?" Is man made CO2 not a real enemy?

Are these rhetorical questions? Are you guiding the world economic markets? Are you in control of anything on a global scale? I'm not either, that would mean someone else is. It is them that are they.

Man-made CO2 is a symptom of a very wasteful use of energy. We are producing far more than our numbers would indicate. So instead of fixing the problem, we will focus on how to remove the symptom. Sounds like modern medicine, doesn't it? Some of the suggested fixes are terrifying in their stupidity. Like dumping billions of tons of the mineral olivine into the world's oceans to sequester CO2.

We seem only able to comprehend things in human time but if you look at earth time, the world has gone through 5 major ice ages separated by millions of years. We are in the end of one now. The climate changed from arctic with glaciers on most continents, to tropical with no ice even in the northern latitudes. We weren't around then.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/earth/cause-ice-age.html

So do I think CO2 is dangerous, not really. It is an indicator. I do, however, believe that we are quite capable of poisoning this world to the point of our and many others' extinction. And I believe that we have already made a good start.

 

[cory]

Jim, Idk, I'm not much of a shopper so I don't know why people go to malls, etc.

 

[cory]

Are these rhetorical questions?

No.

It is them that are they.

That is a cool turn of words. I still have no idea whom you are referring to though, and I'd like to know. There are world leaders and such but I don't think they are working together.

Man-made CO2 is a symptom of a very wasteful use of energy.

Can you explain this?



I read the link. It was written in '97 and states we are in the midst of a cooling period, which goes against what is in the news these days. Also states deep water cooling is going on now, but within the past couple months I read that record heating of ocean depths helps explain why surface ocean temps have not risen as much as some scientists expected. So I'm a bit confused.

Dave I'm trying to figure out your position from your posts. Are you saying that in general the world is spending precious resources to create, buy, and sell junk we don't need, and this intrinsic waste on a grand scale is working toward imperiling life on earth via environmental pollution, although it is not a major cause of global warming?

Eager to hear your ideas as you are someone who has thought a lot about issues.

 

[DMc]

....I read the link. It was written in '97 and states we are in the midst of a cooling period, which goes against what is in the news these days....Dave I'm trying to figure out your position from your posts.......

The fact that an article that chronologs of the earth's last 200 million years was written in 97 seems irrelevant to me. What is relevant is the world has and, in all likelihood, will continue to change. We may not like that but it does not alter the facts. For scientists to conclude that manmade CO2 is the driving force of global change makes no sense. It reeks of myopic thinking and easy funding through public acceptance.

Cory, " my position " has been stated many times in this thread. Try rereading some of my earlier posts. Try not to read more into what I have said. Instead take what bits of information that seem relevant and form your own opinions.

 

[cory]

I also believe the focus on "carbon footprint" is more about money and control than it is about cleaning our planet.

It is only man's arrogance that keeps him from accepting that he is part of this earth and the laws that govern it are not just suggestions. Without a fundamental change in the way we do things, I do not see a happy future. It has been, after all, our great advancements in science and understanding that have brought us to where we are, yet we expect that same thinking will somehow save us.

The biggest wall in front of us is a global acceptance that money management is more important than a healthy planet and a healthy people.

Our expectations of what can be sustained is distorted by false reassurances from people with no scruples. At what point does it become obvious that the world has a limit to what it can produce and that consumption beyond that point will have consequences.

It is interesting that the use of tillage got a strong boost because of bad science.

My thoughts on sustainability are quite simply to follow the format that has been proven to work for hundreds of thousands of years. Utilize all resources available, including common sense, without going into deficit. The world is a bountiful place and can be made more so by mimicking some of its systems.

Did you know that the microbes and roots in the earth's crust sequester more carbon than all the forests and vegetation combined and that they can absorb more as imbalances occur. This is well known. It is also well known that tillage and fallow releases what was stored, not to mention all the other negative consequences to biological functions that soil performs, such as water storage and filtration.

There is a natural limit to what can be produced and not just in food either. We, the world, need to accept those limits.

Famine is an expression of fast changing loss of a food supply. But long term resource limitations curb population by reducing the birthrate until it reaches stability. This can already be seen in world censuses. One of the great tragedies is that large food shipments to impoverished countries breaks this natural birth reduction cycle which leads to famine and pain.

I am concerned about his desire to "crack Yoco's code" and adopt modern propagation and cultivation techniques. Those areas of science are mine fields of misinformation and bad practices largely responsible for our current problems that are slowly coming to light.

I am saying that what is being taught at the highest levels is a flawed system.

It is all about the money and always has been. It is a smoke and mirrors game. They are redirecting the focus away from the real problem. Which is the poisoning of our planet. But they can't call it "poisoning the planet" because the people pulling the strings don't want you to be concerned about that. So they give you an enemy, man made CO2.

It is them that are they.

Man-made CO2 is a symptom of a very wasteful use of energy.

I would say you believe modern soil science and agronomy are responsible for weakening or ruining much of the earth's farm land, while at the same time currently producing too much food using flawed methods thus allowing unsustainably high human population. And you think global warming is primarily not caused by human activity, but humans beating on the soil and thereby causing it's carbon-fixing ability to decrease, and wasteful/excessive use of fossil fuels causing high atmospheric CO2, both exacerbate the warming problem. And you think 'the powers that be' are strongly in favor of maximum resource use to create maximum profit for themselves, and they propose that if we can simply lower CO2 levels we can continue on our current path (to ruin). And industrialization has heavily polluted/poisoned the planet and changes are needed soon to avoid irreversible dire consequences.

 

[DMc]

Well done, Cory! One of the things that I also believe in, when you look to science for answers, don't just read the headlines or an article about the study. Read the study! You would not believe how often what is claimed can be so irrelevant.

 

[cory]

Agreed.

 

[kevin bingham]

good posts Dave and nice summary of Dave's posts Cory. .

 

[cory]

 

[kevin bingham]

http://www.sltrib.com/news/3524088-155/utahs-bad-air-is-the-worst

have some good friend in SLC who say you have to wear a particulate mask to ride your bike

 

[cory]

It wouldn't load for me, but is the inversion getting real bad?

 

[kevin bingham]

The sap that may be running now in Detroit was shivering last February, wasn't it?
Coldest February I can ever recall. Temperature never went above freezing the entire month.
Food for thought:
http://notrickszone.com/2015/08/22/...-much-snow-at-this-time/#sthash.NP6B1iZH.dpbs

yes last year was record breaking cold in Detroit and record breaking warm in Alaska... I think that article goes with everything else everyone has been experiencing. more record breaking weather. floods, heat, cold, wind, drought... AAAAAHHHH That article was not helpful AT ALL for those of us that are doom and gloom the sky is falling on our heads types.